The Lisbon vote

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Purple said:
Rubbish
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Wow, Purple. I view you as one of the best, straight talking, contributors to AAM but it's a hard fact that Lisbon creates an EU entity (State), with a President and Foreign Minister, of which you will become a citizen. That could be an argument for a Yes or a No, but it's a fact that I don't think you can just rubbish.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

michaelm said:
Wow, Purple. I view you as one of the best, straight talking, contributors to AAM but it's a hard fact that Lisbon creates an EU entity (State), with a President and Foreign Minister, of which you will become a citizen. That could be an argument for a Yes or a No, but it's a fact that I don't think you can just rubbish.
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Ok, apologies; I did not mean to offence. The EU is and will continue to be an entity but it will not supersede national sovereignty. The President is not an executive president and the foreign minister will not set policy. We are all, as things now stand, citizens of the EU since we have a common market and a common travel area. Lisbon does not change this is any meaningful way. Without offering this context your comments are very misleading.
Just to be clear I am in favour of a federal EU with an elected executive president, an EU army etc, much like the American model. Therefore I am not disagreeing with you because I don’t like what you are saying, I am disagreeing with you because what you are saying is not the case.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Purple said:
I did not mean to offend.
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I was surprised, not offended. I agree my brief treaty summary was simplistic but that's what was sought; certainly my post was not designed to mislead. Being technical, I usually like to avoid that, the EU is not currently an entity in it own right but will be post-Lisbon; we can agree, I think, that the President and Foreign Minister will be selected, not directly elected, and that although they may not explicitly have the power to set policy under Lisbon they will be powerful figures who will represent the new EU on the world stage. Just to be clear I am not in favour of a federal EU with an elected executive president, an EU army. I favour an EU that's about fair trade and ease of travel where national governments elected by their people can pass or repeal laws without interference from the EU.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

michaelm said:
the EU is not currently an entity in it own right but will be post-Lisbon; we can agree, I think, that the President and Foreign Minister will be selected, not directly elected, and that although they may not explicitly have the power to set policy under Lisbon they will be powerful figures who will represent the new EU on the world stage.
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The President will be selected by elected representatives, just as our Taoiseach is appointed and not elected, and will have very little real power.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

michaelm said:
Great, we've managed to distill the treaty and have Yes and No people agree that it's a 'step closer to the United States of Europe'.:)
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... and without spending any money on expensive YES or NO ad campaigns, debates, documents etc .... AAM clarifies the issues once again :D
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

In the last 100 years, two World Wars started by Europeans (and finished by the good old USofA) and numerous instances of genocide, ethnic and religious cleansing. 23 official EU languages and the euro not adopted everywhere yet. National stereotypes alive and well.

Some way to go yet before we're all homogenous euro-trash that will be pledging allegiance to the flag of Europe while still in school. :)
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Purple said:
I look at the motley collection of wacko’s, from the socialist workers party to the extremist wings of Sinn Fein, who oppose the treaty and I find that I must vote for it.
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It is interesting to note that you've got over your oft-quoted reservations around the social partnership and you are ready to support article
136a which makes legal provision for social dialogue and for recognition of the social partners.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Complainer said:
It is interesting to note that you've got over your oft-quoted reservations around the social partnership and you are ready to support article
136a which makes legal provision for social dialogue and for recognition of the social partners.
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Nothing is perfect.
Are you voting yes or no?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

From http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87311...
What's particularly interesting about this is that McEvaddy is the CEO of Omega Air, a US defence contractor (they supply cargo planes and inflight refuelling services to the US military).

Declan Ganley, president of Libertas, also happens to be president of Rivada Networks, a US defence contractor (they supply emergency communications networks to the US intelligence community).
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Strange how Sinn Fein, the Socialist Workers Party and these guys are allies on the No side !!
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Purple said:
That makes very interesting and disturbing reading.
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Indeed. Remember we're voting on the Lisbon Treaty (hopefully on the basis of Irish self-interest and not on the basis of any perceived gratitude due to Europe); Not on whether Libertas are in league with the US military or the NO camp might be linked to Nazi's or any other demonising propaganda the Yes 'muck spreader' will, for sure, continue to throw out over the next two weeks. The proponents of a Yes are getting tetchy and impatient as, despite their big push for a Yes over the last to weeks, they've lost ground; ultimately they may rue their 'trust us, we know what good for you - or else' strategy.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

michaelm said:
Indeed. Remember we're voting on the Lisbon Treaty (hopefully on the basis of Irish self-interest and not on the basis of any perceived gratitude due to Europe).
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Absolutely agree.

There is no way that FF, FG, Labour, PDs, (Greens?) viz. the whole political establishment are urging a Yes for any reason other than Irish self interest.

The looneys have motives peculiar to themselves for always saying No and it appears that Libertas has motives for a No very much in its self interest.

This is not to say that prima facie a Yes vote does not diminish Irish influence, of course it does. But the political establishment knows that a No vote will certainly have repurcussions for the very generous concessions to Ireland, like corpo tax. They daren't actually say this, but what else does Bertie mean when he says that No would be a disaster?

People who vote No (for Irish self interest) are gambling that we can gum up the whole European political consensus (elite rather than popular, for sure) and sail on merrily as before. It is a gamble which our own political professionals are telling us, the voters, is reckless in the extreme.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Harchibald said:
This is not to say that prima facie a Yes vote does not diminish Irish influence, of course it does . . They daren't actually say this . .
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Such candor is welcome but sadly lacking on the Yes side in general. The politicians are not being upfront with the people as to do so may well lead to a defeat for the treaty. This is not good enough.
Harchibald said:
People who vote No (for Irish self interest) are gambling that we can gum up the whole European political consensus (elite rather than popular, for sure) and sail on merrily as before. It is a gamble which our own political professionals are telling us, the voters, is reckless in the extreme.
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If Lisbon is defeated the EU will continue as is, as per Nice and previous treaties. You know as well as I that the EU political elite are pushing their project through across Europe without popular support; this project would be rejected by many countries if the people weren't denied a say. How can democrats stand over this con?
 
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