The Lisbon vote

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I just find it interesting that people who have never read the treaty are voting for it.
Our very own leader, Brian, who is a solicitor and should know better hasn't read it and he's telling us to vote for it.
People shouldn't sign a document without understanding it.

Has anybody posting here actually read the treaty?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

MaichaelM, I didn't read the Treaty. I did read this leaflet posted to all homes which factually sets out the main thrust. All seemed fairly harmless stuff to me. Of course, we are diluting some of our current influence so as to make this thing work better. We retain our veto on neutrality and tax.

There are 27 countries in the EU. We have 26 counties in the RoI so it is easy to conceive of an analogue. Imagine if every amendment to our constitution had to be ratified by every county. There would simply never be any amendments passed. Dun Laoghaire would veto every conservative amendment and Donegal would veto every liberal amendment. It is really silly that Ireland is allowed this self indulgence of a referendum, and if we abuse that indulgence by saying No, there will surely be ramifications for our very privileged "outs" and concessions within the EU.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Whats the point in voting? If we vote "No" the government will tell us we didn't understand what we were voting on and ask us to vote again on the same subject in 6 months time
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Indeed, anyone who opposes Lisbon is either in league with the US military, an ultra right-wing fundamentalist, a goose stepping fascist, an extreme left-wing nutbar, an isolationist, confused, anti-European . . have I missed any?
Click to expand...

People who believe in democracy.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Harchibald said:
It is really silly that Ireland is allowed this self indulgence of a referendum, and if we abuse that indulgence by saying No, there will surely be ramifications for our very privileged "outs" and concessions within the EU.
Click to expand...
Allowed? Self indulgence? Abuse? This is crazy talk.

If the government wants to sanction the creation of an EU legal entity(state) with a President and Foreign Minister, and make the people citizens of that state, and hand over many decision making powers to that state while diluting they're own influence then the least they can do is to ask the people if that is what they want. For 26 of the 27 EU states it really is a case of the Politicians imposing their will on the people they're supposed to represent. Luckily for the Irish, the constitution has prevented the government from imposing their will so they're faced with trying to push it through, whatever it takes.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

the country hasnt been independent for 100 years and we cant wait to hand even more power to an unelected body (the commission). I'm voting No, I might not like the irish politicians but at least I can affect their future , not like these european boyos
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Can anyone explain what purpose the Commission have other than as a mechanism for getting things passed that would not fly in the Parliament?

And I dont want the stock answer that the Commission staff are the equivalent of civil servants who propose legislation etc. for the EU - the Parliament has its own staff who are the equivalent of civil servants who propose legislation etc. At EU meetings - I mean the day to day mundane ones, not those attended by MEPs or Ministers etc. - you have the bizarre situation whereby Commission "civil servants" and Parliament "civil servants" are seperately represented and quite often have very different views from one another.

It would like if, in this country, as well as having Government Departments staff by civil servants who answer to a Minister from the Dail, that you also had a second group of similar Government Departments with similar powers and responsibilities working of a different hymm sheet and not accountable to the Dail.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

S.L.F said:
I just find it interesting that people who have never read the treaty are voting for it.
Click to expand...

I just find it interesting that people who have never read the treaty are voting against it, and thereby blocking it for the rest of the EU.

Surely its crazy to have a referendum at all on something that no one has actually read !!

The Referendum Commission is basically reading it for us, and their booklet is what most people will base their decisions on. Rightly or wrongly, but thats the way it is.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

csirl said:
Can anyone explain what purpose the Commission have other than as a mechanism for getting things passed that would not fly in the Parliament? And I dont want the stock answer that the Commission staff are the equivalent of civil servants.
Click to expand...
I looked up the comic distributed by the RC. The Commission don't seem to pass anything. They propose legislation which has then to be passed by Parliament and Council. They are the equivalent of civil servants.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?


Why is that the way is is?

First of all I don't live in the rest of the EU. What happens here is what concerns me.

Secondly you are quite correct it is crazy that people will vote for something they haven't even read. I would have thought stupid would be closer to the mark.

Thirdly you should learn, "never sign a form unless you understand it".
I have read what the govt appointed Referendum Commission have said and as far as I can see its all opinions not hard facts.

I want to know what I am voting for not to be bamboozled into making bad choices just because it suits people who haven't even read the treaty themselves.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Either read the treaty (or the RC booklet) and take the time to understand it and then vote accordingly or take your lead from the politicians that you voted for and elected to represent you.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

S.L.F said:
I have read what the govt appointed Referendum Commission have said and as far as I can see its all opinions not hard facts.
Click to expand...

You must have got a different booklet from me. My booklet is starkly devoid of opinion or argument.

Take for example the question "What happens if you vote No?" Answer: "The EU will continue to operate under its present rules." Is that an opinion or a fact? Personally I would have preferred an opinion along the lines of "What would really be likely to happen? How would such a decision rebound on Ireland etc. etc.?"
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

There will have to be a second booklet from the Referendum Commission setting out the stalls for and against.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

bond-007 said:
There will have to be a second booklet from the Referendum Commission setting out the stalls for and against.
Click to expand...

Good to know.

By the way, does your signature breach the posting guidelines?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Purple said:
Why on earth did you think that?
Click to expand...

I've heard this too and was wondering where this came from myself. The same people don't seem to think co-loacted hospitals are the same thing though..it seems to be stcking in people heads as not a good thing.

A lot of people seem to be very wary/anti this treaty but when you ask them they don't seem to know why except they heard it ....somewhere.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

becky said:
A lot of people seem to be very wary/anti this treaty but when you ask them they don't seem to know why except they heard it ....somewhere.
Click to expand...

I reckon the same about people who are in favour of it.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Mr ACA gave me his copy and asked me to explain it to him......took a quiet 1/2 hour and read the booklet from front to middle - the English bit - might as well have read the Gaelic! Haven't got a clue what the whole things about!!

I thought that the whole point of the booklet was to explain the treaty......even more confused now

How is anyone supposed to make an informed decision if everything is in double-speak? Anyone care to give me an idiots guide to the Lisbon Treaty??
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

ACA said:
Anyone care to give me an idiots guide to the Lisbon Treaty??
Click to expand...
Lisbon, in 50 words:

Lisbon creates an EU entity (State), with a President and Foreign Minister, of which you will become a citizen. EU law will supersede Irish law. Commissioners will be selected on a rotational basis. Voting strengths will be adjusted to reflect population size. Ireland will forgo it's veto in many policy areas.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

michaelm said:
Lisbon creates an EU entity (State), with a President and Foreign Minister, of which you will become a citizen.
Click to expand...
Rubbish

michaelm said:
EU law will supersede Irish law.
Click to expand...
In some aspects only but this is the case at the moment so no real change there.

michaelm said:
Commissioners will be selected on a rotational basis. Voting strengths will be adjusted to reflect population size. Ireland will forgo it's veto in many policy areas
Click to expand...
Correct but when you are less than 1% of the whole you can only expect so much.
The EU will become more democratic and more democratically accountable but we will have less elbowroom since there are more people at the table.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register