The death of Ashling Murphy

[Purple]

And males would make up the majority of the perpetrators of assault cases across the board, regardless of the gender of the victim.

There has never been a National Study done which focuses on men as victims of domestic violence so we don't really know the true figure. What is true is that at the extreme end of the scale women are almost always the victims.

 

[RetirementPlan]

There has never been a National Study done which focuses on men as victims of domestic violence so we don't really know the true figure. What is true is that at the extreme end of the scale women are almost always the victims.

This recent meta study of 13 previous studies shows a trend of more DV being perpetrated by women than by men, with more sexual violence being perpetrated by men.

I'm guessing that in terms of overall number of offences, DV doesn't make up a huge proportion of overall assault offences.

 

[RetirementPlan]

This is the kind of harassment that is happening today;

‘I have far too many stories’: 30 Irish women on harassment and assault

Sarah Everard’s death has prompted women to share stories about feeling unsafe in Ireland

www.irishtimes.com

 

[Leo]

This is the kind of harassment that is happening today;

‘I have far too many stories’: 30 Irish women on harassment and assault

Sarah Everard’s death has prompted women to share stories about feeling unsafe in Ireland

www.irishtimes.com

And for a little male victim perspective.

 

[Baby boomer]

This recent meta study of 13 previous studies shows a trend of more DV being perpetrated by women than by men,

Anecdotally, first responders in emergency services and police would disagree with that.

with more sexual violence being perpetrated by men.

No surprise there, sadly.

I'm guessing that in terms of overall number of offences, DV doesn't make up a huge proportion of overall assault offences.

I would hazard a guess that domestic violence is hugely underreported. For every boyo that's prosecuted for a public brawl, there's many many more that go home and administer their violence behind closed doors.

(Yes, yes, I know - not all men - obviously - and yes, some women too.)

 

[cremeegg]

The death of Ashling Murphy does not appear to be a case of domestic violence.

Conflating domestic violence with the killing of a young woman by a stranger in a public place does not advance the discussion.

 

[Baby boomer]

The death of Ashling Murphy does not appear to be a case of domestic violence.

Correct.

Conflating domestic violence with the killing of a young woman by a stranger in a public place does not advance the discussion.

Well, perhaps it does. I would suggest that as a society, we are too ready to tolerate, or excuse, quite a range of violent behaviours. Not necessarily in order of severity, that includes (usually drink / drug fuelled) yob violence, petty robbery/muggings, knife crime, burglaries, low level intimidation, domestic violence and sexual assaults. And by "tolerate" I mean neglect to take effective action to reduce it.

If lower level violent crime was taken more seriously, perhaps the small pool of potential murderers might never get to carry out their crimes. Just a thought, eh?

 

[RetirementPlan]

If lower level violent crime was taken more seriously, perhaps the small pool of potential murderers might never get to carry out their crimes. Just a thought, eh?

Guliani's 'broken window' theory has been fairly well debunked by now. The numbers just don't stack up. Neither does Guliani, come to think of it.

 

[Purple]

Guliani's 'broken window' theory has been fairly well debunked by now. The numbers just don't stack up. Neither does Guliani, come to think of it.

While I’m not a fan of the theory it’s unfair to ascribe it to Guliani. It dates from the 80’s and William Bratton was the Police Commissioner who introduced it in New York. The results were conflated with the results of gentrification. Guiliani was certain at the forefront of that gentrification.

 

[Baby boomer]

Guliani's 'broken window' theory has been fairly well debunked by now. The numbers just don't stack up. Neither does Guliani, come to think of it.

Well, it's fair to say it's been "attacked" by the social science establishment but I'd hardly say debunked! Bear in mind that much of the attack is highly politicised and derives from the "defund the police" mentality that's endemic in so-called progressive US circles.

Anyway, I was applying the concept specifically to lower level violent crime rather than broken window stuff like petty vandalism. Just yesterday, we had a man convicted of murdering his wife who had a previous conviction for domestic violence. Another man gets a mere five years for repeated rapes and assaults on his daughter. And another man assaults a young girl out exercising in Kilkenny. And that's just one days news headlines.

How hard is it to join the dots?????

 

[Purple]

Anyway, I was applying the concept specifically to lower level violent crime rather than broken window stuff like petty vandalism. Just yesterday, we had a man convicted of murdering his wife who had a previous conviction for domestic violence. Another man gets a mere five years for repeated rapes and assaults on his daughter. And another man assaults a young girl out exercising in Kilkenny. And that's just one days news headlines.

I believe that there is a correlation but the Broken Window stuff can be more about keeping the riff-raff away from the well heeled than actually addressing the root causes of violence and social disorder.

 

[RetirementPlan]

Well, it's fair to say it's been "attacked" by the social science establishment but I'd hardly say debunked! Bear in mind that much of the attack is highly politicised and derives from the "defund the police" mentality that's endemic in so-called progressive US circles.

Anyway, I was applying the concept specifically to lower level violent crime rather than broken window stuff like petty vandalism. Just yesterday, we had a man convicted of murdering his wife who had a previous conviction for domestic violence. Another man gets a mere five years for repeated rapes and assaults on his daughter. And another man assaults a young girl out exercising in Kilkenny. And that's just one days news headlines.

How hard is it to join the dots?????

I wouldn't go too hard on the social scientists, given that they came up with the theory in the first place, even before Bratton. And the critiques of the theory go a long way back, way before BLM or defund campaigns were even thought of.

I share your concern, but 'common sense solutions' have an awful habit of not actually working in the real world. People just don't act as rational beings a lot of the time, and don't do the kind of critical thinking that would guide them to make rational choices.

 

[Baby boomer]

I wouldn't go too hard on the social scientists, given that they came up with the theory in the first place, even before Bratton. And the critiques of the theory go a long way back, way before BLM or defund campaigns were even thought of.

Before the BLM / defund nonsense, surely. But born out of the same mindset that sees perpetrators as victims cos it's all society's fault, doncha know. Especially if you've been oppressed.

I share your concern, but 'common sense solutions' have an awful habit of not actually working in the real world.

Yeah, but do solutions lacking in common sense fare any better? I'd suggest not.

People just don't act as rational beings a lot of the time, and don't do the kind of critical thinking that would guide them to make rational choices.

Well, yes, people who violently murder strangers are not acting rationally and are hardly amenable to reason. No great blinding insight there, I suppose! It would be rational though to try to intercept their journey through criminality at an earlier stage. A violent murder is extremely unlikely to be their first violent crime, don't you think?

 

[Purple]

Before the BLM / defund nonsense, surely. But born out of the same mindset that sees perpetrators as victims cos it's all society's fault, doncha know. Especially if you've been oppressed.

There is a strong and undeniable link between social deprivation and crime. A child born into a household where crime is encouraged and addiction is part of the day to day life is far more likely to end up engaging in criminality than their twin raised in a stable household where education and good social values are the norm. That's, well, common sense.
Conflating BLM with defund the police doesn't help either.

Yeah, but do solutions lacking in common sense fare any better? I'd suggest not.

There's a difference between common sense and knee-jerk reaction. Common sense would suggest that data is gathered and root causes are investigated before policies to address issues are formulated.

Well, yes, people who violently murder strangers are not acting rationally and are hardly amenable to reason. No great blinding insight there, I suppose! It would be rational though to try to intercept their journey through criminality at an earlier stage. A violent murder is extremely unlikely to be their first violent crime, don't you think?

Exactly. So the question is what set them on that road and how do we minimise future traffic flows down it.

 

[Purple]

The death of Ashling Murphy does not appear to be a case of domestic violence.

Conflating domestic violence with the killing of a young woman by a stranger in a public place does not advance the discussion.

We don't know if it was a stranger or what the motive was. We only know that it was a horrific crime. Until we know more conflating it with anything is ill advised and sometimes distasteful.

 

[michaelm]

Men are more aggressive than women generally, and the men at the extreme end of the male aggression distribution curve are more aggressive than the women at the extreme end of the female aggression curve.

This is a key point. The extreme end of the aggression scale is virtually all male. It's why the prison population is overwhelmingly male. Much more needs to be done in the areas of mental health, addiction and education generally, and the criminal justice system needs to be overhauled such that those committing crime have a reasonable expectation of being held to account. While this could reduce overall levels of serious crime, it would still be males committing those crimes.

It serves no purpose to make women afraid to live public lives. There is danger, it is small, it affects women no more than men. Domestic violence on the other hand does probably affect women to a greater extent than men.

I tell my daughters to be aware but not to be afraid.

 

[Baby boomer]

There is a strong and undeniable link between social deprivation and crime.

And yet many, many people from deprived backgrounds don't resort to criminality. And many people from very privileged backgrounds do. It might be a different crime, perhaps the white collar type, or sexual assault or domestic violence, which contrary to some stereotypes, is not just confined to the poor. Let's face it, some people are sociopathic, and disposed to crime. If they grow up poor, they might well become a gangland criminal. If they grow up rich, perhaps they'll turn into a rogue property developer, a criminal banker or whatever. But we should stop using poverty as an excuse for crime. It's an insult to all those who grew up poor and didn't turn to crime.

A child born into a household where crime is encouraged and addiction is part of the day to day life is far more likely to end up engaging in criminality than their twin raised in a stable household where education and good social values are the norm. That's, well, common sense.

And if you can figure out how to instill "good social values" in a bad family setting, you're a cleverer man than me. But for those who don't respond to carrot, some application of stick is always going to be needed.

Conflating BLM with defund the police doesn't help either.

Er, didn't BLM start the whole defund the police thing? At the very least they're heavily associated with it and continually call for resources to be diverted away from policing. Unsurprisingly, those US cities that did cut police funding after the 2020 riots (aka "mostly peaceful protests" if you're CNN!) are seeing large spikes in their murder rates now. Who'd a thunk it?

There's a difference between common sense and knee-jerk reaction. Common sense would suggest that data is gathered and root causes are investigated before policies to address issues are formulated.

Well we could wait for ever for a consensus to emerge. In the meantime people are being murdered, robbed and assaulted.

Exactly. So the question is what set them on that road and how do we minimise future traffic flows down it.

If they're behind bars, that's pretty much a guarantee the rest of us are safe from them!

 

[Purple]

And yet many, many people from deprived backgrounds don't resort to criminality. And many people from very privileged backgrounds do. It might be a different crime, perhaps the white collar type, or sexual assault or domestic violence, which contrary to some stereotypes, is not just confined to the poor. Let's face it, some people are sociopathic, and disposed to crime. If they grow up poor, they might well become a gangland criminal. If they grow up rich, perhaps they'll turn into a rogue property developer, a criminal banker or whatever. But we should stop using poverty as an excuse for crime. It's an insult to all those who grew up poor and didn't turn to crime.

There is a clear correlation between social deprivation and crime.

And if you can figure out how to instill "good social values" in a bad family setting, you're a cleverer man than me. But for those who don't respond to carrot, some application of stick is always going to be needed.

Education. That's the only social equaliser that addresses root causes. Welfare only treats symptoms.

Well we could wait for ever for a consensus to emerge. In the meantime people are being murdered, robbed and assaulted.

There is a consensus, amongst people who study these things and actually know what they are talking about. Rates of crime are reducing across most of the developed world. The more equal a society is the lower the rates of crime.

If they're behind bars, that's pretty much a guarantee the rest of us are safe from them!

The USA is the poster child for not doing that. They have by far the highest prison population in the developed world and amongst the highest rates of crime.

 

[Baby boomer]

There is a clear correlation between social deprivation and crime.

To a point, but emphasizing that ignores other factors and particularly individual responsibility and agency. Just today, the Irish Times is reporting that over one third of female third level students report experiencing non-consensual sexual intercourse via coercion, incapacitation, force or threat of force. That is an absolute epidemic of rape; it's serious criminality and it's completely under the radar of Gardai, Courts and politics. And it's got nothing to do with social deprivation.

Thousands of college students experienced sexual violence or harassment – study

More than a third of female respondents said they experienced ‘non-consensual sex’

www.irishtimes.com

Education. That's the only social equaliser that addresses root causes. Welfare only treats symptoms.

See above re third level education. Education doesn't eliminate criminality. Some people are just inherently bad.

There is a consensus, amongst people who study these things and actually know what they are talking about. Rates of crime are reducing across most of the developed world. The more equal a society is the lower the rates of crime.

Perhaps you have a point regarding purely property crime. I doubt it holds for white collar crime. And it doesn't appear to hold for sexual crime, domestic violence and general violent crime.

The USA is the poster child for not doing that. They have by far the highest prison population in the developed world and amongst the highest rates of crime.

It also has a very low (comparative) detection rate for even very serious crime. But when those who are detected are imprisoned, they tend to get kept there for a very long time - where, by definition, they are not out committing further crime.

 

[Baby boomer]

Apologies, double post.