the case of savita- i am a bit confused

This flies in the face of taxi-driver wisdom (which we must respect of course..;)) - dyah see all dem young wans pushin da prams, doin it for the social they are, gerrin a flah from the corpo, everything paid for um.

I'm not sure this discussion is headed anywhere - soon we'll be on to truthseeker with "dont you know pregnancy can really dry out your hair" and a chorus of us going, "yah, I know, tis tough, but I still wouldnt kill the baby over it".

I am pro choice and I wouldn't kill a baby. Until it's born, it is either an embryo or a foetus. However, I would not wish to give birth to a child with severe illness or disability. You may think of it as selfish or murderous but I'd get over preventing it a lot easier than having a child, putting it, myself and the rest of the family through needless suffering and then losing it.

No offence to anyone but I am yet to hear one reasonable and eloquent argument from pro-lifers, many of whom keep referring to abortion as "baby killing" of something that isn't a baby.
 
I am pro choice and I wouldn't kill a baby. Until it's born, it is either an embryo or a foetus. However, I would not wish to give birth to a child with severe illness or disability. You may think of it as selfish or murderous but I'd get over preventing it a lot easier than having a child, putting it, myself and the rest of the family through needless suffering and then losing it.

.

I like your quotation from the Nun yesterday, she is I think some kind of theologian. So far I don't understand why McGibney was upset by it, he might clarify?

My first child had to go into the specialist unit after birth. After what I saw in there I could never understand how it was right to keep a baby alive at 24 weeks and other such hard cases. Don't get me wrong, the nurse and that unit were unbelievable. So caring and kind. Brillant doctors and great advances in science. But some of those babies were going to have a hell of a life and I would consider that the parents lives to be practically over too in some of the circumstances. There I met an Irish couple, they told me that they would now never return to Ireland because the systems in place there to deal with babies such as theirs were so inferiour. I presume they knew of which they spoke. They were quite clearly traumatised. My child's problems were insignificant in comparison.
 
And perhaps we should re-invent the wheel while we are at it. The vast majority of people do not live in fear pregnancy or indeed stretch marks. I suspect that you will be in a very tiny minority who view pregnancy as their body being hijacked.

A friend of mine considered it to be a parasite. Much wanted babies by the way, horrendous pregnancy, and difficult birth. But one is not allowed to say that one's body is hijacked or that it is like a parasite. People would think you were nuts.

What's to like about pregnancy when you think about it. The getting pregnant part is a bit of fun, the finding out your pregnant is yippee, the first 3 months no bother (for me anyway), the last 3 months are no joy, no sleep, walking around in the dark for hours on end in the middle of the night, going back to bed, going to the toilet all the time, not being able to lie in any position that would be considered comfortable, one pregnancy I had from the second trimester a pain so severe in my leg that I couldn't go any long distance in a car, so bad that on holiday my husband had to drop me and the first child to a train station as I could not physically stay in the car, and you cannot be taking medication when you're pregnant. Then all the scans and hospital visits and hanging around. I personally didn't find the scan wondrous. Never asked my OH to accompany me (unless he wanted to and he did for the first proper scan of course), there is no woman I know that likes getting examined internally, and my gyny was female but I had to endure some young males too. It's bloody embarrassing and I'm quite cool about my body. I hated being frumpy, feeling frumpy and looking frumpy. Then finally the day has come, I was being induced as the baby had stopped growing, trainee doctors having a go at getting the needle for the drip into my wrist I seem to remember as being a particularly bad moment, I refused all trainees after that. Then they come with the oedema the first of many indignities, and the contractions, oh my what a shock. The epidural being inserted into your back and one is aware that you must not move so the anythestist gets it right because otherwise it can have long term consequences, the trying to push when you cannot feel anything, then an episiotomy, I'll spare everyone on here those details, but I now know why you're not allowed to have sex for 6 weeks after that, finally the baby, blood and guts and all that gore, those details you'll have to ask my other half about, but I don't think he'd be willing to speak about what he saw. He was happy that the baby looked at him on the way out though, I reckon he tries to forget the circumstances of the birth, and you know what some people even film this, like are they for real or what. Not sure if my OH considers natural birth or a caesarean worse, I was awake but could see nothing. He won't talk about that either, typical tough Irish male eh? (One of my brother in laws nearly fainted and had to be seen to) . And it was me that had to go though it not the men. And when the milk comes in, oh my gawd, today I cannot remember what was worse, the milk or the pain from the caesarean. For sure after the first pregnancy I had all myths dispelled and no never looked forward to being pregnant again. I could wear a bikini because my scar is so neat, only 3 inches etc., but my tummy will never be the same again, how does Victoria Beckham do it is what I'd like to know. And so to answer your question, my body was most definitely hijacked and will never be the same again. But I'm happy to be a mother. Sometimes not (insert smilie, cannot currently find that option). And would never hand them back.
 
I'm not sure this discussion is headed anywhere - soon we'll be on to truthseeker with "dont you know pregnancy can really dry out your hair" and a chorus of us going, "yah, I know, tis tough, but I still wouldnt kill the baby over it".

Truthseeker doesnt really care about cosmetic stuff actually, all she is concerned with is the freedom for a woman to choose what happens to her own body.
 
I like your quotation from the Nun yesterday, she is I think some kind of theologian. So far I don't understand why McGibney was upset by it, he might clarify?

Upset? No, as I said, I just found her comments disgusting. They are positively dripping with condescencion and betray, to my ears anyway, a rather obnoxious superiority complex. If a Priest or Bishop tells their congregation next Sunday that "I THINK IN MANY CASES YOUR MORALITY IS DEEPLY LACKING" (shouted in capitals too ;)) I think many people would consider them likewise.
 
so to answer your question, my body was most definitely hijacked
Forgive me if I'm not surprised that you join truthseeker (which, I'm afraid, given some of the posts in this thread has proved as much a antonym as a pseudonym) in that regard. Despite being merely a man, I have been through the process end to end on quite a few occasions (granted, I've not had to push), and while the first time can be unnerving I found it to very much be a positive experience . . not as scary or dramatic as the picture you paint . . but then you have a flair for the dramatic having recently described expectant mothers in Ireland as "lambs to the slaughter".

IMHO cosmetic, career or economic concerns are no justification for taking the life of the unborn.
 



A friend of mine considered it to be a parasite. Much wanted babies by the way, horrendous pregnancy, and difficult birth. But one is not allowed to say that one's body is hijacked or that it is like a parasite. People would think you were nuts.

What's to like about pregnancy when you think about it. The getting pregnant part is a bit of fun, the finding out your pregnant is yippee, the first 3 months no bother (for me anyway), the last 3 months are no joy, no sleep, walking around in the dark for hours on end in the middle of the night, going back to bed, going to the toilet all the time, not being able to lie in any position that would be considered comfortable, one pregnancy I had from the second trimester a pain so severe in my leg that I couldn't go any long distance in a car, so bad that on holiday my husband had to drop me and the first child to a train station as I could not physically stay in the car, and you cannot be taking medication when you're pregnant. Then all the scans and hospital visits and hanging around. I personally didn't find the scan wondrous. Never asked my OH to accompany me (unless he wanted to and he did for the first proper scan of course), there is no woman I know that likes getting examined internally, and my gyny was female but I had to endure some young males too. It's bloody embarrassing and I'm quite cool about my body. I hated being frumpy, feeling frumpy and looking frumpy. Then finally the day has come, I was being induced as the baby had stopped growing, trainee doctors having a go at getting the needle for the drip into my wrist I seem to remember as being a particularly bad moment, I refused all trainees after that. Then they come with the oedema (I've to find the word and will come back) the first of many indignities, and the contractions, oh my what a shock. The epidural being inserted into your back and one is aware that you must not move so the anythestist gets it right because otherwise it can have long term consequences, the trying to push when you cannot feel anything, then an episiotomy, I'll spare everyone on here those details, but I now know why you're not allowed to have sex for 6 weeks after that, finally the baby, blood and guts and all that gore, those details you'll have to ask my other half about, but I don't think he'd be willing to speak about what he saw. He was happy that the baby looked at him on the way out though, I reckon he tries to forget the circumstances of the birth, and you know what some people even film this, like are they for real or what. Not sure if my OH considers natural birth or a caesarean worse, I was awake but could see nothing. He won't talk about that either, typical tough Irish male eh? (One of my brother in laws nearly fainted and had to be seen to) . And it was me that had to go though it not the men. And when the milk comes in, oh my gawd, today I cannot remember what was worse, the milk or the pain from the caesarean. For sure after the first pregnancy I had all myths dispelled and no never looked forward to being pregnant again. I could wear a bikini because my scar is so neat, only 3 inches etc., but my tummy will never be the same again, how does Victoria Beckham do it is what I'd like to know. And so to answer your question, my body was most definitely hijacked and will never be the same again. But I'm happy to be a mother. Sometimes not (insert smilie, cannot currently find that option). And would never hand them back.

I entirely agree with you Bronte. I had probably the easiest pregnancy and birth in the world in terms of physical but I still don't want to be pregnant again or have another baby. I am not ashamed to say that I had to seek crisis pregnancy counselling as it was unplanned and an old trauma which wasn't dealt with properly spun me entirely out of control emotionally when I found out.

My excellent counselor spoke to my husband too and she did describe gestation as having a parasite in your body in attempt to explain to him the physical and emotional effect of pregnancy in some cases. It turned out to be a lovely parasite in the end and I wouldn't give him for the world but I am able to be honest about it.
 
Firstly, this is a highly emotive & complex area, and I think, should the personal attacks continue, this thread will & should be locked.

With respect to everyone against abortion on-demand (and I would have always been in this camp myself) I think it's not until an unwanted pregnancy knocks on your door that you can fully understand...in particular, I would also ask that you re-read the last sentence of oldnick's excellent post #75.
 
. . not as scary or dramatic as the picture as you paint . ..

My account was not dramatic or scary, I just tried to give a light fly on the wall commentry so as not to bore people. My story is completely true it's just not the way it's painted in pretty baby books. I never tell first time mothers any of the details of actual pregnancy, one only does that for baby number 2 because then you know that they know too.

I was never scared, not by the pregnancy, nor any of the births. I also consider by what I've heard from other women that I had easy pregnancies and births and that I was taken care of by excellent medical professionals of my choosing.

But you know what is scary, until we know the details of the Galway case I certainly wouldn't want to deliver there. I'm not trying to be dramatic, just honest in my feeling.
 
Firstly, this is a highly emotive & complex area, and I think, should the personal attacks continue, this thread will & should be locked.

The only personal attacks are coming from quarters who would prefer to see the thread locked to suit their own agenda. They would prefer that none of this is discussed at all. Its a typical response.
 
. It turned out to be a lovely parasite in the end and I wouldn't give him for the world but I am able to be honest about it.

That's lovely Yachtie, I feel the same way too about mine. I wanted to have another one but couldn't face it, (and other issues that it's not good to talk about on here).
 
Upset? No, as I said, I just found her comments disgusting. They are positively dripping with condescencion and betray, to my ears anyway, a rather obnoxious superiority complex. If a Priest or Bishop tells their congregation next Sunday that "I THINK IN MANY CASES YOUR MORALITY IS DEEPLY LACKING" (shouted in capitals too ;)) I think many people would consider them likewise.

Thanks for the reply Tommy, I'm not saying I still understand your reply though, but let that lie. I'm wondering what if your priest or bishop thought that the congregations morals were lacking but didn't speak it.
 
Thanks for the reply Tommy, I'm not saying I still understand your reply though, but let that lie. I'm wondering what if your priest or bishop thought that the congregations morals were lacking but didn't speak it.

If he thinks it and doesn't speak it, how am I to know? :)
 
The only personal attacks are coming from quarters who would prefer to see the thread locked to suit their own agenda. They would prefer that none of this is discussed at all. Its a typical response.
Are you referring to yourself in the third person again.
You can spout as much disrespectful rubbish as you like, refusing to answer direct questions or explain any of your views, in this thread, in the other thread, in the thread you linked to, and, getting personally abusive, kind of makes anything you post on the issue redundant.
This is indefensible bile.
 
Are you referring to yourself in the third person again.This is indefensible bile.


And only yesterday you were feeling sorry for Truthseeker? :confused: I think on AAM the rule is you tackle the ball and not the person.

Maybe we should just summarise the situation.

Truthseeker is pro choice in any circumstances if I understand her correctly, but would have time limits I think. That it's a woman's body and her choice.

And Michaelm, you are totally oppossed to abortion in all cases, except I think from the 2008 thread you did I think recognise that sometimes 'medical procedures' which are not to be called abortion, would be necessary to save the life of the mother, as distinct from her health.
 
And only yesterday you were feeling sorry for Truthseeker? :confused:
Yes. That hasn't changed. Obviously this is a very emotive issue. I'm happy to argue the case from pro-life view point . . and have done so many times over a number of years on AAM. My posts on the subject have always been consistent, concise, clear and unapologetic. I appreciate that some (many perhaps) vehemently disagree with my view point. That is not an issue for me. I think that any fair reading of this thread and the one I linked to previously would show the misrepresentation and false allegations levelled repeatedly at me by one poster in particular. Unfortunate methinks.
 
The only personal attacks are coming from quarters who would prefer to see the thread locked to suit their own agenda. They would prefer that none of this is discussed at all. Its a typical response.

I'm not calling for censorship or shutting the thread down, it just seems that there's a definite pattern of throwing in any auld reason as yet another 'justification/rationalisation'. And I hope you didnt interpret the bit of slagging (dry hair) as a personal attack.

I think we'll get the legislation we need to stop another Savita case, and if that's done well (dealing with all cases of 'life incompatable outside the womb' whether or not life or health of mother at risk, and other cases where mothers life at risk) then I think that's enough.

If people want to take the boat then we cant stop them (as shown by the legal case), but to say that we must therefore roll over and approve abortion on demand in Ireland and if we dont we are hyprocrites doesnt stack up. As a teacher might say - if Johnny Englander jumps off a cliff does that mean you have to?, if we as a nation believe abortion on demand is wrong then I think we are entitled to those views - its not a vindictive attitude to the mother is out of respect and concern for the unborn.

I've already given my views as to what the implications are if no women went to England, which is a bit of a theoretical cul-de-sac anyway as we know thats not going to happen.

So comprehensive 'Savita legislation' and otherwise status quo is alright by me.
 
Truthseeker is pro choice in any circumstances if I understand her correctly, but would have time limits I think. That it's a woman's body and her choice.

Good summary Bronte.

Id like to add to that though, I would also like to see better access to contraception (which is very expensive in this country also), better supports for women who do make the choice of having the baby, good counselling services for all aspects of pregnancy/choice, and a better legal system for pursuing dead beat dads (Its a different argument and do not wish to go into it here but countless women just give up because the legal system makes it so difficult to pursue financial support).

When I was in college a good friend found herself choosing to go to the UK for an abortion. She didnt have the money for it, couldnt tell family. The students union paid for it, including counselling services before and afterwards. She would have had no access to any of that other than the fact she was a student in the college at the time. These days the college has a creche for students with babies, that wasnt around back then, but it could influence different decisions?

The absolute worst thing possible, to my mind, is a stonewall situation where we do not talk about this, or do not examine all aspects of choice.
 
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