the case of savita- i am a bit confused

Betsy Og said:
Yes indeed it was good discourse. My point above was that killing people could solve at lot of problems if you thought that was acceptable, but i dont think so.
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I agree. There's no peripheral social agruments for abortion.
 
Purple said:
So at some stage a foetus becomes a baby, even within the womb. Is that correct? I’m just trying to understand your views, I’m not score points or trying to catch you out. If that is your view then I agree on that point. We differ in whether the woman’s right to control what happens to her body trumps the right to life of the unborn, or at least when and under what circumstances.
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I dont think that you are trying to catch me out! I am fully aware that there are plenty of 'but what about...' cases that can be used to counteract anyones view on this (not just mine!).

Yes, definitely foetuses can become babies in the womb (I say can, because so many things could happen naturally or unnaturally that prevents that - dont they say something like 8% spontaneously abort/miscarry in very early stages?) - anyway....

I mean, the ideal solution would be the invention of some method of growing foetuses to babies outside the womb - (or 100% safe, free, and totally failure proof contraception - but there would still be pregnancy from rapes and possibly others where people just didnt happen to be using the contraception). Then no one would need to have an abortion, nor would anyones body be hijacked. Although it does raise the uncomfortable scenario of so many thousands of babies coming on stream to go into orphanages and taxes going to pay for both the incubation costs and orphanages - once it started costing hard cash I could see us being back to people advocating abortions.

I had a rethink on my kidney analogy. It doesnt cover the personal responsibility of getting pregnant. So, lets say you and I were fencing, and I stabbed you in the kidney, and the only way to save your life would be to give you my kidney. If I didnt want to do it I dont think I should be forced to. Now, Id feel terrible about it, and I probably would want to give you my kidney, but I dont think I should be forced to.
 
truthseeker said:
I mean, the ideal solution would be the invention of some method of growing foetuses to babies outside the womb . . nor would anyones body be hijacked
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And perhaps we should re-invent the wheel while we are at it. The vast majority of people do not live in fear pregnancy or indeed stretch marks. I suspect that you will be in a very tiny minority who view pregnancy as their body being hijacked.
truthseeker said:
Although it does raise the uncomfortable scenario of so many thousands of babies coming on stream to go into orphanages and taxes going to pay for both the incubation costs and orphanages - once it started costing hard cash I could see us being back to people advocating abortions.
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I'm afraid it doesn't raise any such scenario. It's a pure nonsense argument. And if you believe that cost might be an influencing factor for anti-abortion people, well, then you really have little understanding of such people.
 
michaelm said:
And perhaps we should re-invent the wheel while we are at it. The vast majority of people do not live in fear pregnancy or indeed stretch marks. I suspect that you will be in a very tiny minority who view pregnancy as their body being hijacked.
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Ok - welcome to the real world where women pay plastic surgeons for tummy tucks. And where contraception is a thriving industry because, guess what? People live in fear of pregnancy. Hang on, arent you a man - ah ok, so you know how women feel about their bodies then :rolleyes:

michaelm said:
It's a pure nonsense argument. And if you believe that cost might be an influencing factor for anti-abortion people, well, then you really have little understanding of such people.
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You can spout as much disrespectful rubbish as you like, refusing to answer direct questions or explain any of your views, in this thread, in the other thread, in the thread you linked to, and, getting personally abusive, kind of makes anything you post on the issue redundant.
 
michaelm said:
If you are interested in my views on the subject (and I doubt it) then just go back to 2008 and read mine and your posts on this AAM thread.
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That is a very interesting thread. I was amazed at how many people could be blaise about abortion. Most people seemed so preoccupied about the money rathar the fact that the girl was going to have an abortion.

I thought Ailbhe's story was deeply insightful, particularly her changing views on abortion once she got pregnant herself. And her brave decision to have it. But that there was a cost to that for her. Literally it shows how women are left holding the baby. What was shocking was that thread was in 2008 and I think she had the child about 6 years before that so 2002 - In 2002 a confused young woman of 19 was pregnant because a condom broke and when whe went to the University doctor for the morning after pill, the morals of that doctor meant she was refused. And after that when she went to another doctor, that doctor told her a pack of lies about her cycle and said she didn't need the morning after pill. Both doctors had made her feel so embarrassed that she didn't seek any further help.
 
truthseeker said:
You can spout as much disrespectful rubbish as you like, refusing to answer direct questions or explain any of your views, in this thread, in the other thread, in the thread you linked to, and, getting personally abusive, kind of makes anything you post on the issue redundant.
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Ah come on now truthseeker, we should listen to all views.
 
truthseeker said:
You can spout as much disrespectful rubbish as you like, refusing to answer direct questions or explain any of your views, in this thread, in the other thread, in the thread you linked to, and, getting personally abusive, kind of makes anything you post on the issue redundant.
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You won't be happy about this, well, you probably won't care . . but I actually (surprisingly) feel sorry for you.
 
This is, my its nature, a highly emotive topic. Therefore we should all try to avoid ratcheting it up by using emotive language.
 
I saw this quote recently:

I THINK IN MANY CASES YOUR MORALITY IS DEEPLY LACKING IF ALL YOU WANT IS A CHILD BORN BUT NOT A CHILD FED, NOT A CHILD EDUCATED, NOT A CHILD HOUSED.

THAT IS NOT PRO-LIFE, THAT'S PRO-BIRTH! (Sister Joan Chittister)
 
Yachtie said:
I saw this quote recently:

I THINK IN MANY CASES YOUR MORALITY IS DEEPLY LACKING IF ALL YOU WANT IS A CHILD BORN BUT NOT A CHILD FED, NOT A CHILD EDUCATED, NOT A CHILD HOUSED.

THAT IS NOT PRO-LIFE, THAT'S PRO-BIRTH! (Sister Joan Chittister)
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What a disgusting statement. What gives her (or you), the right to imply this about anyone, especially people posting here?
 
T McGibney said:
What a disgusting statement. What gives her (or you), the right to imply this about anyone, especially people posting here?
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My post was not about the people posting here but I do share this person's sentiment. I would also assume that the person whose statement that is is or was a nun (Sister) so to me, it really gives a new dimension to the whole religious view.

My childcare costs are in around €10,000 a year, add food, healthcare, clothes, toys, etc. and it adds up to a lot of money. There also have been many discussions about working mothers and their work / career prospects so if you take all that into equation you may be able to understand it. I don't think that abortion is a solution to many socio-economic problems faced by families and children born into poverty or to parents who are either physically or mentally unable to look after them but I do think that there is a difference between pro-life and pro-birth.

In relation to poor Savita, my heart went out to her and her family. I am not qualified to give medical opinion on the issue but I do hope that she didn't die in vain. A loss of a child is a terrible thing for anyone, I can't imagine the pain of her loved ones who have lost her as well.
 
I think I posted something similar myself to say "how can people be so exercised about life in the womb, but indifferent after that, e.g. childrens referendum turnout".

However thats just a general observation, it isnt obviously particularly applicable to to either pro-life or pro-choice, I'm sure we'd easily find some looper to say "its all the abortionists obviously dont care about child poverty and wont come out to vote in the childrens referendum, sure its no wonder, arent they pro-death before a child is born at all".

So this "pro-birth" insinutation is pure rubbish, as I said earlier there's a quick and easy solution to a lot of the worlds ills if people want to chose that route.
 
Betsy Og said:
...as I said earlier there's a quick and easy solution to a lot of the worlds ills if people want to chose that route.
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Certainly speaking for myself, abortion is the lesser of two moral evils for me (ie, between enforced pregnancy or abortion). But of course, its still a terrible thing.

Sometimes we can justify awful things because the alternative is worse to us. For example, if a stranger was raping me and the opportunity presented itself, Id kill them. Of course I would. I would never know if they intended on leaving me alive after their crime, Id be angry in the moment, and most of all Id be afraid, very afraid.

Is murder worse than rape? Of course. But would I do it - sure.
 
Yachtie said:
My post was not about the people posting here but I do share this person's sentiment.
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So next time a cleric tells someone that "I THINK IN MANY CASES YOUR MORALITY IS DEEPLY LACKING IF..." to advance a less fashionable viewpoint, I take it that you will simply nod your head in agreement?
 
T McGibney said:
So next time a cleric tells someone that "I THINK IN MANY CASES YOUR MORALITY IS DEEPLY LACKING IF..." to advance a less fashionable viewpoint, I take it that you will simply nod your head in agreement?
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I wouldn't have any contacts with clergy and even if I did, they wouldn't influence my opinions. However, I personally do believe that it's immoral to deprive anyone of shelter, nourishment or education regardless of whether the argument is within or outside of abortion issue.

There are many valid arguments on both sides and they should all be heard and equally valued. Most women would be against having an abortion, I think, but at the same time, should specific circumstances present themselves, most of the same women would appreciate a choice of being able to openly and without stigma discuss and consider all their options before making a decision. Specific circumstances being the key factor.
 
Yachtie said:
However, I personally do believe that it's immoral to deprive anyone of shelter, nourishment or education.
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That's great, so do I, and, I suspect, us all. But I'm at a loss to understand what on earth all this Whitney Houston type moralising adds to the discussion?
 
T McGibney said:
That's great, so do I, and, I suspect, us all. But I'm at a loss to understand what on earth all this Whitney Houston type moralising adds to the discussion?
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Socioeconomic factors can be one reason that a woman does not want to continue a pregnancy - she simply cannot afford a child or another child.

All the pro-life sentiments in the world are not going to feed, clothe and house that child for her.

Calling a valid point 'Whitney Houston type moralising' is kinda patronising and doesnt really add anything to the discussion.
 
truthseeker said:
Socioeconomic factors can be one reason that a woman does not want to continue a pregnancy - she simply cannot afford a child or another child.
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This flies in the face of taxi-driver wisdom (which we must respect of course..;)) - dyah see all dem young wans pushin da prams, doin it for the social they are, gerrin a flah from the corpo, everything paid for um.

I'm not sure this discussion is headed anywhere - soon we'll be on to truthseeker with "dont you know pregnancy can really dry out your hair" and a chorus of us going, "yah, I know, tis tough, but I still wouldnt kill the baby over it".
 
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