Taxpayer to pay for IVF for those who can't afford it.

Brendan Burgess said:
Would someone like to analyse this in financial terms?
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Hard to quantify it financially imo. But from an economic perspective the reality is Irish family sizes are on a downward trajectory long-term, similar to trends across Europe, US and Japan.
People who work hard, develop a career are discovering that after all their efforts, studying, working, saving etc that they are still can't get on housing ladder and as a consequence are delaying starting a family.
This is leading to reduced rates of fertility amongst the hard working, tax paying, population.
Population replacement will be reliant more so on immigration. If economic conditions take a turn for the worst, immigrants won't come.
In the end, if Irish people stop having children (admittedly a long way off), or enough children to replace the population, then everything you own, your house, your car, your pension, your investment property etc, will very quickly become worthless.
Having children may be expensive for parents, but for the economy as a whole, they are priceless.
 
I heard a couple on the radio today saying thay had 14 rounds of IVF treatment before they had children :eek:
Is there stats available on the average # of rounds it takes to have kids?

I'd also like to call BS on those stats that it costs 12k a year per child from 0 to 21. Way over the top in my experience
 
Delboy said:
I'd also like to call BS on those stats that it costs 12k a year per child from 0 to 21. Way over the top in my experience
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I was just going to say, I'll have to give my kids away cause I can't afford them!

And we'll have to make a massive increase in payments for social welfare if it costs that much...

Any survey published by an insurance company has a bias to overstate. The equivalent here was done by Aviva but they only added it up to 105k - obviously didn't want to overdo it if they don't have the same target market.
 
I found the report that says it's 105k as well. Clearly there is something amiss with both numbers !!!

One thing I can say with fact is that for both of my daughters the childcare bill was/will be 45,000 euro each before they started primary school. That is ~48 months at 1015 each less 3600 roughly ECCE contribution. We will start both after the age of 5.
I will also have to continue paying childcare until they leave primary school, working out around another 10k a year between them for 9 years. We don't have any family members in Dublin and that covers a 3 day week only since July, and includes longer hours during the school holidays. We pay a childminder to come to the house on a fair wage, all put through the books.
So I calculate my childcare bill alone until the start of secondary school to be 180k divided 2 so 90k each.

I think the 250k is closer to my costs than the 105k. Others may have cheaper options available to them for childcare to bring costs down.
 
Just on the couple with 14 rounds of IVF - they must have seriously deep pockets and be very mentally strong to keep it up

However, I would not like to see the state fund that level of IVF for anyone. Personally, I think anything beyond 3 cycles is excessive
 
gnf_ireland said:
Just on the couple with 14 rounds of IVF - they must have seriously deep pockets and be very mentally strong to keep it up

However, I would not like to see the state fund that level of IVF for anyone. Personally, I think anything beyond 3 cycles is excessive
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Presumably they wouldn't fall into the category of 'can't afford to pay for it'.
 
No, but I still think state supported IVF should be available to them. I do think this is something that should not be means tested.
 
gnf_ireland said:
I found the report that says it's 105k as well. Clearly there is something amiss with both numbers !!!

One thing I can say with fact is that for both of my daughters the childcare bill was/will be 45,000 euro each before they started primary school. That is ~48 months at 1015 each less 3600 roughly ECCE contribution. We will start both after the age of 5.
I will also have to continue paying childcare until they leave primary school, working out around another 10k a year between them for 9 years. We don't have any family members in Dublin and that covers a 3 day week only since July, and includes longer hours during the school holidays. We pay a childminder to come to the house on a fair wage, all put through the books.
So I calculate my childcare bill alone until the start of secondary school to be 180k divided 2 so 90k each.

I think the 250k is closer to my costs than the 105k. Others may have cheaper options available to them for childcare to bring costs down.
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Don't forget that the average should include families with a stay at home parent.
 
@torblednam fully accepted re average including a SAHP. I was just saying in my personal case the 250 is closer than the 105.

Obviously the more kids you have the cheaper it is on average also.

I guess I just wanted to say that in some cases 250 is not unheard of !!
 
People can be very creative in how they raise children. It can be done on a lot less than 12k a year per child. Perhaps that article should read 'average middle class spend'. So many people adapt their lifestyle to raise children. It's often about the choices you make.

I think something that Brendan's thesis is missing is that there is a difference between being able to generate more money and being able to live well on the lesser amount you do have. There are plenty of working class families that can make 40k go much further than 70k for a more well off family. Living in a place where cost of living is less, childminding to cut out your own childminding costs, sourcing second hand goods, clever shopping, meal planning. You just can't say that someone who cannot come up with 5-10k for IVF cannot afford children. Perhaps they can't afford to raise their kids like you do, but that's a different thing.

I still think we don't have the money in our health budget to afford to fund IVF, but the child affordability argument doesn't hold up. Unless you know individual circumstances you can't know how people will manage.
 
For the record:- I think the service should be available to everyone and not just those who pay tax. Sorry if I caused confusion. Merely, I was pointing out that couples seeking free IVF probably pay tax so what's the problem with them benefiting?
 
For the record I do not believe it should be made available to all. I believe it should be based on a number of factors - including a health assessment of the mother AND a minimum number of PRSI stamps paid.
 
TheBigShort said:
In the end, if Irish people stop having children (admittedly a long way off), or enough children to replace the population, then everything you own, your house, your car, your pension, your investment property etc, will very quickly become worthless.
Having children may be expensive for parents, but for the economy as a whole, they are priceless.
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The single most important point in this and any other debate on the future of the economy.
 
Maybe lowering the cost of raising a child may help here. I know lots who stop after 2 kids as they make a financial decision that they cannot afford a reasonable lifestyle if they have more. May be more a middle class view but then again maybe not
 
Purple said:
Are you really suggesting that IVF can and will solve the problem of population replacement?
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No. I am agreeing with The Big Short, for a change, that the problem of population replacement is fundamental to our future economic well being.
 
cremeegg said:
No. I am agreeing with The Big Short, for a change, that the problem of population replacement is fundamental to our future economic well being.
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Okay, but let's not falsely associate one as a solution for the other, thereby using such as issue as a justification for the State funding IVF.
 
Morning Ireland had a UCD Legal bod on who was speaking on how any IVF legislation could be worded, what would be in and what could not be included.
Apparently it would be discriminatory to stop someone who has 2,3,4+ kids from applying for this if they had the need and wanted more kids. No cap could be put on it.

They didn't talk about age but wouldn't it be discriminatory also to stop a 60yr old woman for example from applying?

This being Ireland, I can see some serious issues arising into the future with whatever system is brought in.
 
Delboy said:
Apparently it would be discriminatory to stop someone who has 2,3,4+ kids from applying for this if they had the need and wanted more kids. No cap could be put on it.
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There are clear restrictions in the UK on availing for this. I cannot see how they can do it and we cannot. If our laws are that silly, then they need to be adjusted.
 
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