Tax defrauders list but no welfare defrauders list

[joe sod]

State overpaid €116m in social welfare last year, annual report reveals

The State overpaid €116m in social welfare last year, according to the Department of Social Protection annual report.

m.independent.ie

An article about 116 million being overpaid in welfare payments which would include welfare fraud. However to my knowledge these defrauders are allowed to pay back the payments gradually are not charged penalties, are not struck off the welfare system and do not have their names published. This is in stark contrast to how tax defrauders are dealt with, why is this?

 

[MrEarl]

Yet again, our Government is far too soft on crime!

Not only should a list be published, but they should be jailed and made work on chain gangs to aid the local councils, until they've done enough to repay the debt.

 

[thedaddyman]

State overpaid €116m in social welfare last year, annual report reveals

The State overpaid €116m in social welfare last year, according to the Department of Social Protection annual report.

m.independent.ie

An article about 116 million being overpaid in welfare payments which would include welfare fraud. However to my knowledge these defrauders are allowed to pay back the payments gradually are not charged penalties, are not struck off the welfare system and do not have their names published. This is in stark contrast to how tax defrauders are dealt with, why is this?

Not quite correct, names are published where they have or are being prosecuted, here is one as an example

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[Dr Strangelove]

Because much of this is

Not quite correct

It is correct. Revenue publishes a defaulters list, DSP does not.

Rules around prosecutions are totally different.

 

[thedaddyman]

This post is slightly out of date(it's from 2021) but will give some indication of the efforts made to recover payments made under false pretences

Over €75M in social welfare payments reclaimed in fraud investigations | BreakingNews.ie

The Department of Social Protection reclaimed over €75 million worth of social welfare payments last year, after people received money they were not entitled to.Over 13,000 investigations were launched into welfare fraud in 2020 and the Department received over 20,700 reports o

www.breakingnews.ie

 

[Dr Strangelove]

First, this press release always come out in August as space is easier to fill.

Second, DSP unhelpfully bundles fraud and error together. Fraud is of course a deliberate attempt to gain more benefits than entitled.

Third, error can occur via mistake by DSP staff or mistake by claimant at time of claim. Eligibility rules are not always simple, and people’s lives are complex. A change in your household or small increase in earnings can alter your eligibility for an entitlement. This is not fraud within any normal meaning of the word.


I remain to be convinced that large-scale, persistent welfare fraud is common in Ireland.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Isn't there a limit of €33,000 or something below which the details are not published?

That would be fair enough. If someone has defrauded the state of €33k , then publish it.

But apply the same criteria. Don't demonise one group over the other.

Brendan

 

[T McGibney]

Isn't there a limit of €33,000 or something below which the details are not published?

That would be fair enough. If someone has defrauded the state of €33k , then publish it.

But apply the same criteria. Don't demonise one group over the other.

Brendan

Very few tax settlements would entail any admission of fraud, and I suspect the same goes for social welfare settlements.

It's going to be moot anyway for the majority of high-value welfare settlements that typically are resolved after the death of an OAP recipient.

 

[Protocol]

First, this press release always come out in August as space is easier to fill.

Second, DSP unhelpfully bundles fraud and error together. Fraud is of course a deliberate attempt to gain more benefits than entitled.

Third, error can occur via mistake by DSP staff or mistake by claimant at time of claim. Eligibility rules are not always simple, and people’s lives are complex. A change in your household or small increase in earnings can alter your eligibility for an entitlement. This is not fraud within any normal meaning of the word.


I remain to be convinced that large-scale, persistent welfare fraud is common in Ireland.

Is it more difficult to define welfare fraud than tax fraud?

My in-laws were on JSA and DA for years, but my FIL never looked for work, and my MIL is not disabled.

Is that fraud?

They can't be unique. I feel there must be thousands of people like them.

 

[joe sod]

Big difference is welfare fraudsters to my knowledge are not charged penalties on top like tax defaulters. Also they do not lose their house or assets as has happened for tax defaulters

 

[Purple]

I remain to be convinced that large-scale, persistent welfare fraud is common in Ireland.

Really?
How many people do you know who claim single parents benefits but are in fact cohabiting, often with the father of the children? I work with at least 4 men doing this. They have good incomes and their partner gets housing supports and child supports as a single parent. I suspect that this is the norm rather than the exception. When FIS, HAP/council housing and other supports are taken into account I wouldn't be surprised if the cost ran into the billions.

 

[Towger]

Revenue are thinking of stopping publishing the tax defaulters lists. Which would be a pity, it always makes interesting reading, especially when you recognise a name.
I agree with the level of SW fraud, but not just from SW. My neighbour is proud that he is on disability from An Post. He spends is time gardening, but cannot bend down to put a letter in a letterbox. I am sure there are other Jobs in An Post he could have done. At this stage he maybe on the Pension. But, a good lad for any advice on getting free services from the State and free TV etc.

 

[Pmc365]

I thought there was some new rule that stopped them ( Revenue) publishing tax defaulters. I also though that the European Convention on Human Rights prevented them from imposing penalties on deceased persons estates.
I know of a retired gentleman who has a non- contributory state ( old age) pension. It's means tested. You're only allowed €20,000 in cash/ assets outside your principal residence anything over which before your pension is reduced by a ready reckoner. He has a house ( semi derilict) on a private beach and a few acres of land attached owned outright. Probably worth about €200,000 due to scenic location sitting on elevated site beside private beach with Crystal blue waters and €50,000 in cash. He lives in a council house and pays about €35 a week rent. He told me he was investigated by social welfare. They asked to see his bank account statements. He only showed them some of his accounts and said he had under €20,000. Apparently social welfare accepted his word and never pursued him further for overpayment. I suggested he sell everything and spend the lot as when he dies social welfare will take the lot. He is 70. He only became the owner in last few years. Never registered for nppr or lpt. The strange thing is he doesn't see this as theft ( i.e. not declaring his assets) and is very self righteous and says he is honest and would never steal anything. I know it's not the biggest" fraud " and in the grand scheme of things insignificant but I'd say alot of people are not declaring their means. He would have been better never to have received the property as it's no good to him.

 

[joe sod]

He has a house ( semi derilict) on a private beach and a few acres of land attached owned outright. Probably worth about €200,000 due to scenic location sitting on elevated site beside private beach with Crystal blue waters and €50,000 in cash.

Does social welfare not have access to the land registry to find out what assets a person actually owns. Surely if the social welfare had access to this information it would free up alot more derelict and dormant properties as these type of people would be forced to sell them

 

[T McGibney]

Does social welfare not have access to the land registry to find out what assets a person actually owns

I'd be amazed if the land registry folio search facility is capable of facilitating such fishing expeditions.

Surely if the social welfare had access to this information it would free up a lot more derelict and dormant properties as these type of people would be forced to sell them

I'm missing your logic here? If you're an OAP sitting on a valuable asset, you won't get rid of a social welfare eligibility issue by selling that asset and realising its value.

In fact you'll probably compound it.

 

[Protocol]

Years ago I had a discussion with the civil servant in charge of non-con pensions (he introduced me to that term).

He told me that their main issues are:

(1) applicants not declaring all of their assets

(2) recipients saving so much out of their ongoing non-con pension income, that they accumulate enough savings to subsequently fail the means-test


I suspect the non-declaration of all assets is widespread.

 

[joe sod]

I'd be amazed if the land registry folio search facility is capable of facilitating such fishing expeditions.

I know its not designed that way and is actually very hard to obtain that sort of information, im not suggesting anybody should have this open to them but surely a government agency like social welfare should be able to access it.

"I'm missing your logic here? If you're an OAP sitting on a valuable asset, you won't get rid of a social welfare eligibility issue by selling that asset and realising its value.

In fact you'll probably compound it."
Well if social welfare had access to this information they would not be eligible for these payments and would be under more pressure to sell those assets that they have hidden since they would need the money. That would increase the availability of these properties

 

[ashambles]

One of the unsuccessful MEP candidates in Ireland south this year had an interesting and recent case for tax evasion regarding crypto assets - from what I could see not one journalist put two and two together and brought it up as an issue - wouldn't have been a high profile candidate. No doubt was hoping the MEP gravy train would help pay the outstanding debts to revenue.

That should be revealing about how much notice is paid to the Revenue list these days.

 

[Dr Strangelove]

Land registry data is really too unstructured and unreliable for this kind of thing.

However LPT data is more structured and up-to-date. You could easily enough identify non-contributory pensioners who are the main LPT taxpayer on two ore more properties.

I have no idea if Revenue and DSP run these kind of matching exercises.

 

[T McGibney]

Well if social welfare had access to this information they would not be eligible for these payments

The DSP cannot be expected to track every land ownership in the State and and every valuation movement therein, without massive additional resources in back office staff. Even then, such an exercise by any State body would likely raise fundamental personal privacy concerns and might well be illegal.

It's much simpler, more efficient and more cost effective to monitor the estates of their recently deceased clients and extract from those estates settlements representing the cumulative overpayments to date, as is routinely done these days.