Subject choices for 13 year old in secondary school with a leaning towards architecture/engineering.

[EmmDee]

Why do you need a language in the leaving for a course that is conducted in English?

Very literal view of subjects and education - it's the class of learning (i.e. learning syntax, vocabulary, nuances etc). Mathematics is almost a language in itself for example.

Why require Irish? Why require Maths if you're doing arts - it's not about the specific knowledge

 

[dereko1969]

Why do you need a language in the leaving for a course that is conducted in English?

Old fashioned "notions" I'd guess (as a UCD alumni, I can say this), I wonder was it an attempt to keep out those Tech ruffians!

 

[kitty81]

Certainly plenty of food for thought and I'm glad it was brought to my attention about languages and the potential limit on her choices by not choosing one! Just to add, it wasn't the school who highlighted this, which I find extordinary considering the impact it could have!

To date, she definitely has a graw for all things logic. She doesn't do ifs or buts! Don't ask her to explain what a poet was thinking when writing a poem or choosing a certain word etc.....her response is no one knows except the poet! But ask her about numbers and she'll work it out.

I guess I feel everything (right now!) is pointing towards anything but languages but to keep her options open she'll need to take one on. Or be prepared to take one on eventually.

Trying to justify having to choose a language when it's something she has no desire to use is hard. And if I'm honest, I don't really understand the logic either! But it is what is is.

My younger child could want to be hairdresser one day and an Olympic athlete another so not as clear cut! But maybe that will make decisions on subject choices much easier.

 

[kitty81]

Are they doing the new Junior Cert Technology course in the school?. My 13 yr old girl is doing it and loves it. she's been sawing, soldering, cutting and designing things, their project for the junior Cert seems to involve building a robot.

I'd also encourage them to do something completely different as well, tastes change and 13 is young to be pigeon holing yourself,. Also it broadens the horizon

Yes , so far she really enjoys it and says she finds it really fun! All I ever want for her is to at least 'like' her job when she gets there.

Not to be like her mother who hates hers

 

[Mousehelp]

There are very few schools that don’t have a foreign language Compulsory for junior cert. I’d image it’s compulsory in her school. Only exception would be students who are exempt due to a learning difficulty.

 

[kitty81]

It's not - in fact art has very little relation to architecture. Art might be better suited to Design. Architecture requirements for UCD are : "O6/H7 in English, Irish, Mathematics, a third language and two other recognised subjects" (https://www.myucd.ie/courses/architecture/architecture/). So art would qualify as one of the two other subjects in terms of calculating points

The other thing to remember is that Engineering (and other sciences) don't require a language but they do require a "laboratory science" (which doesn't include technical subjects like material science or technical drawing). This means that if they want to keep open both Archictecture and Engineering, they will need to plan to do a science and a language for the Leaving Cert.

I'm not sure if any of this is helping - it sounds complicated but I find if you work back from potential college courses it can clarify i.e. If I need a language to apply to college I will need to do a language for the Leaving Cert. That means I must do a language for the Junior Cert OR I plan to take one up before the LC

There are very few schools that don’t have a foreign language Compulsory for junior cert. I’d image it’s compulsory in her school. Only exception would be students who are exempt due to a learning difficulty.

I would have thought it should be compulsory but I've checked and double checked and its not compulsory for anyone in the school!

For this reason, I find it bizarre that it is not highlighted to us, how it can impact the students down the road!

 

[Mousehelp]

Did she choose a language in first year? Often, the subject choices don’t include the language as it’s a given that they will continue this through to at least JC.
I’ve taught in a lot of schools and they all had a compulsory language to JC. excluding a language at JC would be very limiting for the students for LC and hence college courses.

 

[kitty81]

Did she choose a language in first year? Often, the subject choices don’t include the language as it’s a given that they will continue this through to at least JC.
I’ve taught in a lot of schools and they all had a compulsory language to JC. excluding a language at JC would be very limiting for the students for LC and hence college courses.

She has only started in first year and the students get to try out all subjects for the month of September before making their choices.

The choice are then laid out in 3 choice groups and she can avoid any language across the three choice groups.

The 'core' subjects she must do are English, Irish, Maths, History, Geography and Science

I understand now how including a language as a compulsory would be beneficial to her but she can avoid taking one at all

 

[Mousehelp]

Ok. Very unusual. I know one school where science for JC is not compulsory but not aware of any where a language was an option.

 

[Jim2007]

Why do you need a language in the leaving for a course that is conducted in English?

Because your understanding and ability to communicate in English will be improved by your understanding of other languages.

 

[Jim2007]

A thirteen year old knows very little of life and by the time she is eighteen her views on life maybe completely different and not having a third language could be very limiting. A good mix is better than a concentration at this stage.

From 13 to 16 by daughter wanted to be a vet, today she is a graphic artist. And to our amusement, she spends 45 hours a week speaking French, a language she hated in school... but the cool company she wanted to join only speak French.

I hated languages in school and was happy to see the back of Irish when I went college. I then studied accounting and was assigned to an Irish speaking partner - four years of accounting and finance through Irish! Followed by 30 years doing it through a Swiss dialect that has no written format! But never in English.

You never know how life will turn out, so don’t let her limit her options too early.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Certainly plenty of food for thought and I'm glad it was brought to my attention about languages and the potential limit on her choices by not choosing one! Just to add, it wasn't the school who highlighted this, which I find extordinary considering the impact it could have!

To date, she definitely has a graw for all things logic. She doesn't do ifs or buts! Don't ask her to explain what a poet was thinking when writing a poem or choosing a certain word etc.....her response is no one knows except the poet! But ask her about numbers and she'll work it out.

Just on the career choice of architect, I would have said that the attributes mentioned above don't really fit the mould of an architect. Sounds more like computer programmer or accountant or something but an architect is much more a creative type of career, one where ifs or buts are very much part of the thinking. Others have said art is not a requirement for architecture and maybe from a purely technical point of view you don't need to be good at drawing but I would have thought from a mental point of view it is very important to think artistically and to be open minded on the possibilities.
Structural engineer on the other hand might be more in line with someone who thinks very logically.
As for languages, my own view would be that learning a language is beneficial not only for the language itself but moreso for changing the way you think about things. That said, if she really doesn't like it then she probably shouldn't pursue it - however bear in mind that 13 years old is still a very young age to be making such choices.

 

[Purple]

Just on the career choice of architect, I would have said that the attributes mentioned above don't really fit the mould of an architect. Sounds more like computer programmer or accountant or something but an architect is much more a creative type of career, one where ifs or buts are very much part of the thinking. Others have said art is not a requirement for architecture and maybe from a purely technical point of view you don't need to be good at drawing but I would have thought from a mental point of view it is very important to think artistically and to be open minded on the possibilities.
Structural engineer on the other hand might be more in line with someone who thinks very logically.
As for languages, my own view would be that learning a language is beneficial not only for the language itself but moreso for changing the way you think about things. That said, if she really doesn't like it then she probably shouldn't pursue it - however bear in mind that 13 years old is still a very young age to be making such choices.

Yep, seems more suited to Engineering. Architecture is much more of a creative field. I agree with other posters that Art would be a great help.

 

[kitty81]

Interesting that architecture isn't considered a 'logical' career choice given her preferred subjects and probably over time something we need to at least discuss with her. To be fair, when I think about it more, she loves the computer drawing bit of it but maybe hasn't considered that she needs to come up with that idea to begin with!


On the plus side, after explaining that she might limit her own choices by excluding a language she is going to choose one. Now to decide which original subject choice gets the boot! All she knows is Tech Graphics is staying

Thanks again for all contributions - it has been really helpful making a decision with her

 

[Steven Barrett]

Very literal view of subjects and education - it's the class of learning (i.e. learning syntax, vocabulary, nuances etc). Mathematics is almost a language in itself for example.

Why require Irish? Why require Maths if you're doing arts - it's not about the specific knowledge

Ah Irish, a subject taught in schools for 14 years and causes more stress for children than benefit. How can children spend that many years being taught a language yet generation after generation finish school unable to speak it. It should be optional.

 

[Zenith63]

Ah Irish, a subject taught in schools for 14 years and causes more stress for children than benefit. How can children spend that many years being taught a language yet generation after generation finish school unable to speak it. It should be optional.

Or teach us to speak it, not to write letters/poems/essays in it. Such a waste of time the way it is currently taught.

 

[Purple]

Ah Irish, a subject taught in schools for 14 years and causes more stress for children than benefit. How can children spend that many years being taught a language yet generation after generation finish school unable to speak it. It should be optional.

Or the people who claim to be able to teach it should take a long hard look at themselves. In what other field could such a staggering record of failure be countenanced?

 

[Steven Barrett]

Or teach us to speak it, not to write letters/poems/essays in it. Such a waste of time the way it is currently taught.

Agree 100%. It is pointless teaching kids about poetry in a language they don't understand or can't converse in. They end up learning off phrases by heart and just sticking it down on the page.

See how Jim learnt Irish, learning it through talking in it day in day out. Not by reading a book about a grim life of death and starvation on the Blaskets.

I hated languages in school and was happy to see the back of Irish when I went college. I then studied accounting and was assigned to an Irish speaking partner - four years of accounting and finance through Irish!

 

[phoenix53]

https://www.riai.ie/careers-in-architecture/how-to-become-an-architect - this might help.

Points very high. 622 this year for TU. Its all about supply and demand. Low number of places, high demand, high points. An interview also seems to be part of the selection process.

Personally, I would say she is too young to be deciding her future at this stage.

Having just got another child passed the Leaving Cert, I would say the broader their subject choice at Junior Cert Level, the better. My son has been a lawyer, economist, teacher and has finally decided to go down the Finance route with Accountancy in his mind at the moment. This may change as they can specialise in year 3 of his degree.

The Junior cert should be used, in my opinion, to take as broad a selection of subjects as possible. This leaves them in the best place possible, when selecting subjects for their Leaving Cert. If they don't know what they want to do when they leave school, they can take the subjects they most enjoyed from Junior Cert and sit them for their Leaving Cert. It is so much easier to study subjects you enjoy rather than muddle your way through Leaving Cert doing subjects you hate because you kept your subject selection too narrow at Junior Cert level.

I would be in favour of the idea of taking a language at least until Junior Cert.

 

[Jim2007]

Ah Irish, a subject taught in schools for 14 years and causes more stress for children than benefit. How can children spend that many years being taught a language yet generation after generation finish school unable to speak it. It should be optional.

Kids are like everyone else, if they don’t see s use for a language they don’t bother learning it either. English teachers here in Switzerland will tell you that it is the easiest subject to teach because every kid in the class sees that it is useful to them. And they can use it immediately on the internet so they get positive feedback.