Subject choices for 13 year old in secondary school with a leaning towards architecture/engineering.

kitty81

Registered User
Messages
147
I couldn't find a more appropriate thread for this so apologies if I am in the wrong area.

My 13 year old has had a sample of all the 'choice' subjects in secondary school and has to make her selection at the end of this week.

All along she was choosing not to do a language, which was fine by us, but now we are hearing that a third language is a requirement for alot of colleges.

Obviously its a bit early to determine if she will even go to college, although, she has maintained for a few years now that she would like to do architecture/engineering.

Can anyone help shed some light for us. Shes our eldest so learning on the job now!
 
There are 13 level 8 (hon degree) architecture related courses in Dublin and only 2 require a modern language.
15 level 8 engineering Courses in Dublin and none require a modern language.
Be mindful also that a science subject is required by some level 8 engineering and HL matHs required by most.
 
Technical graphics is a nice subject for someone with an engineering interest and is easy points if you are good at it. Not all schools offer it.

For architecture at third-level freehand drawing ability is pretty useful. Art as a subject might help this but it is not easy points.
 
She should do the subjects she's interested in and likes doing.
Research how many courses require a modern language and help her decide if it is necessary.
After that, encourage her to do the subjects she likes.

Doing a subject like Art, because it might be good to learn to draw to be an architect is a mistake. Leaving Cert Art is difficult, very technical and you have to have a real love for it to get through the course and do well.
 
All along she was choosing not to do a language, which was fine by us, but now we are hearing that a third language is a requirement for alot of colleges.

This is said in a lot of schools. But it's not completely true though I understand why it's said. Many courses outside the "technical / science" area do require a language. Not choosing a language at this early stage is cutting out a lot of options they might want to have in 5 years time. So the school advice is about keeping options open - which I understand.

However, as stated, most science / engineering / technical courses don't require a language. But, for example, Architecture in UCD requires a language. Only sciences / engineering don't. So they need to understand that a choice at this stage can cut out a lot of options.

However, I would say that it is feasible to not do a language initially but take one on during transition year (in or out of school) and be ready to join a leaving cert program
 
I was in a similar position many years ago but was aiming for Computer Science. I did the research others have suggested and discovered I didn't need the third language for CS in any of the colleges I wanted to attend, and could also safely drop Irish down to Ordinary level (I am very poor at languages generally) and focus on the other subjects. I took Technical Drawing/Graphics, Applied Maths, Physics and Accounting and ultimately really enjoyed school because I wasn't doing any subjects I didn't enjoy or thrive at. One caveat though is that I was 100% focussed on Computer Science, if somebody were less sure and wanted options this may not have been the best approach.

I regret not having a European language regularly, but reaslitically the way languages are taught in Ireland I would not have come out of the Leaving Cert speaking the language, I'd come out of it with a mediocre result in a subject I had to dedicate significant time to, to the detriment of others. If my kids end up in a similar position I'll be inclined to find a way to allow them learn to speak another language, be that travel or afterschool activities.
 
I regret not having a European language regularly, but reaslitically the way languages are taught in Ireland I would not have come out of the Leaving Cert speaking the language, I'd come out of it with a mediocre result in a subject I had to dedicate significant time to, to the detriment of others.

Agreed. Even a B in higher French/German in the Leaving Certificate wouldn't get you further than working in a kitchen in one of those countries. You would have to do serious extra learning to actually live and work functionally.

Education is good, and learning languages is good even if it provides no practical benefit. I wouldn't remove it from the curriculum, but they are not for everyone.

Personally I kept French but I dropped all science subjects for LC as I knew I didn't want to do anything science-related. I did subjects that I found interesting and I did well and that was right for me.
 
Education is good, and learning languages is good even if it provides no practical benefit. I wouldn't remove it from the curriculum, but they are not for everyone.
The former Dean of Engineering in UCD once told me to never confuse education with qualification. He said qualification was what you did for a few years whereas education was what you did all your life. Nice man.

Do subjects you like in school and remember that if you are curious your education never stops.
 
Maybe kids are different now but when I was 13 my idea of career choice was poorly formed and speculative. Even those with more definite ideas at that age may change them by 18 (or 28 for that matter). In my opinion it is not a great idea to narrow subject choice at 13 on the basis of a current belief about future career. However, if a student has a difficulty or lacks apptitude for a particular area I don't see a point in struggling through second level with it unless it is an essential subject.
So I would choose on the basis of aptitude, interest and keeping options open.
 
I am so grateful for all your helpful replies. I will explain this to her and ultimately leave it to her to decide. She is very interested in technical drawing already, with the teacher specifically asking her if she was going to choose it as she has done well so far during the taster classes.

She loves art and again quite good but I am aware of friends growing up who spent an awful lot of time at it. I assume it would be a requirement for architecture.

She has always tried to figure out how things work and her Dad is very like that too so she hasn't licked it off the ground!

All that being said, I am in no way expecting her to stick to this choice as the years go on. I appreciate that it may change and I suppose that's the concern, by not choosing a language now is she limiting her options

Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate all opinions.
 
One thing I forgot to mention above is that having watched a few people do different types of engineering the one thing that struck me was their ability or understanding for maths. Their courses appeared easier for them because they coped well with the maths side of things. A few of them also mentioned when I questioned them about this that the people who struggled most in their classes were the ones who found maths hard.

Certainly wasn't something that would have suited this bimbo :p
 
She loves art and again quite good but I am aware of friends growing up who spent an awful lot of time at it. I assume it would be a requirement for architecture.

It's not - in fact art has very little relation to architecture. Art might be better suited to Design. Architecture requirements for UCD are : "O6/H7 in English, Irish, Mathematics, a third language and two other recognised subjects" (https://www.myucd.ie/courses/architecture/architecture/). So art would qualify as one of the two other subjects in terms of calculating points but it is not a requried subject for Architecture. But a third language is a requirement (this is the critical point for your kid probably)

That section of the UCD website will list the requriements for any course (all the other colleges haev similar but to be honest, requriements are quite similar)

I agree with the points above - the kid will have to do Maths English & Irish. They should ideally have a science / technical subject and a language if they want to keep all options open. But being able to do subjects that they like is a big benefit so definnitely try to include at least a couple of subjects they really like.

The other thing to remember is that Engineering (and other sciences) don't require a language but they do require a "laboratory science" (which doesn't include technical subjects like material science or technical drawing). This means that if they want to keep open both Archictecture and Engineering, they will need to plan to do a science and a language for the Leaving Cert.

I'm not sure if any of this is helping - it sounds complicated but I find if you work back from potential college courses it can clarify i.e. If I need a language to apply to college I will need to do a language for the Leaving Cert. That means I must do a language for the Junior Cert OR I plan to take one up before the LC
 
Are they doing the new Junior Cert Technology course in the school?. My 13 yr old girl is doing it and loves it. she's been sawing, soldering, cutting and designing things, their project for the junior Cert seems to involve building a robot.

I'd also encourage them to do something completely different as well, tastes change and 13 is young to be pigeon holing yourself,. Also it broadens the horizon
 
It's not - in fact art has very little relation to architecture. Art might be better suited to Design. Architecture requirements for UCD are : "O6/H7 in English, Irish, Mathematics, a third language and two other recognised subjects" (https://www.myucd.ie/courses/architecture/architecture/). So art would qualify as one of the two other subjects in terms of calculating points but it is not a requried subject for Architecture. But a third language is a requirement (this is the critical point for your kid probably)

That section of the UCD website will list the requriements for any course (all the other colleges haev similar but to be honest, requriements are quite similar)

I agree with the points above - the kid will have to do Maths English & Irish. They should ideally have a science / technical subject and a language if they want to keep all options open. But being able to do subjects that they like is a big benefit so definnitely try to include at least a couple of subjects they really like.

The other thing to remember is that Engineering (and other sciences) don't require a language but they do require a "laboratory science" (which doesn't include technical subjects like material science or technical drawing). This means that if they want to keep open both Archictecture and Engineering, they will need to plan to do a science and a language for the Leaving Cert.

I'm not sure if any of this is helping - it sounds complicated but I find if you work back from potential college courses it can clarify i.e. If I need a language to apply to college I will need to do a language for the Leaving Cert. That means I must do a language for the Junior Cert OR I plan to take one up before the LC
Irish isn't required in TU Dublin (Bolton Street) which, according to a friend who studied the subject in UCD, is the best school of Architecture in Ireland.
 
According to the RIAI website, there are currently 5 accredited primary degree programmes for someone seeking to pursue professional registration as an Architect. As far as I can see, UCD is the only one of these that requires a third language. The others are Waterford, Limerick, Cork and TUD (formerly DIT).

According to Qualifax, there are currently 1360 courses accessible via third level CAO that do not require a third language, while there are 185 that do. Perhaps she should have a look at both of these before deciding.
 
Architecture and engineering have very different focuses and engineering in particular covers a range of different professions. Start with a review of current course requirements, they do vary considerably.

In general, for engineering, Honours Maths/Applied Maths/Physics - the nice thing is that they have good cross-over as subjects so one can help the other along and all three are either useful or, in the case of honours maths, required for some courses. Even if it isn't a course requirement, higher level maths I would say should be considered necessary, maths is a cornerstone of engineering of all shades and if you struggle at higher level maths in school you will struggle more with it in third level.

Actually it isn't a bad idea to group subjects by cross-over areas anyway, and try and pick a grouping that plays to your strengths.

Other than that, technical graphics is a good choice, chemistry if she is interested in chemical engineering would also be useful.

The best idea though is to go with what she enjoys and wants to engage with. If she likes biology, that covers the science angle if a science is required. If she enjoys history, she should do it, same for geography, business whatever. At the end of the day, she will do better in school if she feels engaged with her subjects.

I would ask her to think seriously about dropping a third language though, if it is a struggle then it is probably the right choice but it isn't something that should be done lightly, she is picking subjects for her Junior Cert here, not her Leaving Cert. If languages really don't work then at least she gave it a try and can drop it for the Leaving. Rolling forward into the future, in 2027 she may be thinking of doing a year abroad under the ERASMUS scheme. I know there are courses across Europe delivered in English (especially in STEM) but having even the foundation of a European language will help with such an undertaking.
 
Back
Top