Should Turkey be allowed join the EU?

Turks in EU

I read somewhere that Turks in EU contribute over €50 billion a year. What does Irish contribute? Or those newly entered 10 countries? Most recent link I can find is www.medea.be/?page=10&lang=fr&doc=1650 .
If Irish build US , Turks build Europe.
 
Turkey

Go to Germany and talk to any German and you will get a taste of how despised the Turks are. They are not all hard working model citizens, you know. Go to the other EC country that is a net contributer to the EC, that is the UK, and overall do you think Turkey has contributed much to the UK way of life? Has it contributed much to the New York way of life ? We do not owe the Turks anything, and already give these countries enough.
Charity begins at home.
 
pooor James!

The second phase-the largest stretch-of the Ballincollig bypass has been finished by a Turkish company last week.And hold on to your seat:For millions of euros less than expected and in months less time than expected.
By Turkish workers.With the shovels and picks in their hands,working all days of the week.
Today-on a Sunday-I passed the site of phase 3 of the Ballincollig bypass:all men working!Saving millions and millions of €uros to the Irish .By damned hard labour.
When the official opening of the second phase was last week the workers got ONE day off.ONE day.
It reminds me on the Irish working in Britain 40 years ago.And Britain is no net contributor to the EU,in their whole EU history they have been only ONCE a net contributor,decades ago that was.As a result they voted for Maggy who threatened to quit the membership if that happens again .Poor James.Charity begins at home-from which mentally impoverished background do you come from?
Could it be that you have talked to former "socialist
workers" in Germany about their "despise of Turkish labourers"?Because they speak as much English as you speak German.....and they used to work so hard that their entire state went bankrupt....
 
re: poor James!

Heinbloed, well said!

So James, turks have built a fab new bypass in Cork, within budget and six months ahead of schedule, what then are your marvellous contributions then to Irish society that you feel that you are in a position to slag off Turks?

I have lived in Germany and the only Germans I have ever heard complain about Turks are an uneducated minority who contribute very little to German society themselves.

Sounds like a similar situation here.


Heinbloed - Must smile every time I am on the Ballincollig bypass and I pass the large sign giving directions to KANTURK! Was this a private joke amongst the Turks?
 
James, there are many valid reasons for having reservations about Turkey join the EU and I am sure if you tried you could phrase your points in such a way that they could not be dismissed as racist generalisations. When you post like this you are asking other posters to blow your arguments out of the water.
I think if you talked about cultural differences and the burden that Turkish membership would place on EU structural funds, along with the time it would take to modernise it’s economy as well as the internal security implications of having a large land border with unstable middle-eastern countries others would not be able to dismiss your views so easily.
I am not saying that I agree with you but what you have to say should be heard.
Sorry if I sound patronising. In fact; sorry, I do sound patronising.
 
Turkey

Heinbloed, you are actually wrong about the UK's contribution to the EC. They , and Germany, have been actually the two biggest contributers over the years.

Just because the Turks work for less money and work harder on a road project in Cork does not mean their homeland should automatically be admitted to the EC.
 
british eu contributions

You are right James,the British EU contributions are the second largest .Even if they get their "special British discount",I checked the euro stat homepage.
The "Turks " are made up of several different population groups,not all are extreme nationalists or religious fanatics.
There are the Kurds,the Alevites,what is left of the Armenians and several others.If it wasn't for the NATO backing up the Turkish military that state would have fallen apart a long time ago.The bad human rights record that the Turkish state undoubtedly has is a consequence of permanent suppression of everything that was/is threatening the power of the elite class-the military and their civil representatives-and the power of NATO .
Did you get the news that a few years ago the driver of
the president drove around several high ranking heroin dealers,in the states car no.1 belonging to the president?Only because they where involved in an accident it appeared in the press. On bord of president Ciller's car where several internationally wanted (interpol)Mafiosos incl. states enemy no2-making use of the immunity of the states president.Ciller lost her presidency about it. Well, one year later the daughter of the Turkish ex-president married the son of Germans chancellor Helmut Kohl .Then he got in trouble when he had to explain where he got the money for his election campaigns-millions had not been accounted,black money.He said to the parliament commission that he has promised to his "friends"not to say where the money came from.....

Both families profited under the deal,since we signed the international human rights convention the family is protected.IF the Turkish office of public prosecution wants Ciller she can come to Germany and live with her family,protected by the human rights convention and a diplomatic passport.And if the German states attorney wants Kohl ,well,he has family in Turkey.....
The Sicilian word for family is "Mafia",it suits in this case.
Should we still allow the Germans to reside in the EU?After all the German parliament commission decided not to follow the obvious track because of "Kohl's extraordinary engagement for the reunification"-in fact they rang him out of bed at 8 in the morning when the wall came down the evening before.
And you complain about Turkey and how different they are?!Money makes the world go round .
 
Turkey

I wouldn't let them in. Those feckin Muslims. They bad. Me good. Me Christian. Beat chest. They no understand good west. Bad. Kill. Wipe them out!

Errr...isn't that what your brother muslim OBL is trying to do to us in the west?
Think you have things backwards mate.
 
Turkey

Fantastic article in todays SBP on this issue. Glad to see some are realising what this will cost us all.



[broken link removed]
 
...

"Do we want the river of Islam to enter the riverbed of secularism?" he asked."



Firstly: Turkey is a secular country


"Even the Vatican joined in. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has maintained that from a historical and political point of view, Turkey represents a continent that is in "permanent contrast to Europe'' and should not be in the EU."



Secondly: This is a joke ... right?

What about Ireland in the 1970s? The Catholic Church told people how to run their lives. There was no divorce, no contraception. It was precisely because of the EU that events changed in Ireland. Turkey should be able to benefit by its inclusion as well.



Thirdly: What will the poplulation of the EU be in 2050? What percentage of the total vote will Turkey have? 15%? 20%? It won't be any more significant than Germany's current voting strength.
 
Turkey

Firstly: Turkey is a secular country

"Austrian agriculture commissioner Franz Fischler, in a recent letter to Verheugen that was leaked to the media, said that Turkey was a "sui generis society, far more oriental than European'' [ul]and its professed secularism was "only skin deep''.[/ul]


"precisely because of the EU that events changed in Irel
? Please explain that. Provide some evidence that the EU had ANYTHING to do with changes in Irish mores.

What will the poplulation of the EU be in 2050? What percentage of the total vote will Turkey have? 15%? 20%? It won't be any more significant than Germany's current voting strength.

"Within but a few short years, the populations of four big cities [in the Netherlands] will have a predominantly nonwestern background and the majority religion will be Islam"
"Opponents of Turkey's entry into the EU point to the fact that this nation of 72 million people - while ostensibly a secular state - is overwhelmingly Islamic by religion."
"Around 15million Muslims lived in the 15 nations of the EU before May 1, excluding illegal immigrants. Of those, almost four million are Turks."
"In Germany, there are 2.6 million Turkish gastarbeiter (guest workers)."

Add these to the existing Muslim populations of europe and I begin to get worried for the future direction of our european democracies.

I do not want to see a growing underclass of poor immigrant muslims with an axe to grind against their host countries in europe and little intention of ever accepting "imperfect'' western values (per Mr.Erdogan) or integrating fully into that imperfect western society.
 
Re: ...

...b y the way, the Turkish contractor has done such a great job on the Ballincollig by pass (within time & budget), that I now believe that they have been awarded a section of the Ennis bypass to constuct also....
 
Bypass

Are Irish people working on this project?
Are the Turkish workers being paid Irish rates?
Or are they being exploited mercilessly, like so many other foreign workers in this fine country?

What will a massive influx of cheap and desperate labourers mean for the Irish market?

Is it considered good for this society to use the exploitation of foreign workers to force Irish people into the dole queues?
 
some backup

Intra dimensions of Europeanisation


Legal obligations of EU membership, relating to non-discrimination and equality of pay, began to challenge attitudes to women, the workplace and the family.
• Throughout the 1970s, individual women began to challenge the constitutionality of laws that discriminated against them.
• Judiciary and Court system begin to develop interpretations of constitutional rights.
Between 1971 and 1987, there were 45 major challenges relating to sex discrimination and equal rights

This, combined with the emergence of Irish feminism and a belated acknowledgement from the government that action needed to be taken, led to a significant shift in attitudes and values.
Still, it was always the need to conform to legal obligations arising as a consequence of EU membership that proved most effective in securing economic - and therefore more expensive - rights. The rights of women to work after marriage, to equal pay and to equal opportunities, to maternity leave, and to equal social welfare allowances, were only granted by the Oireachtas when, and sometimes long after, it was obliged to grant these rights by EU membership

(Galligan, 1998:68-89).


Any advances in women’s rights that could cost money were always vigorously resisted by the legislature’ and ‘might have been won by women without the intervention of the EC, had they had the resources and energy to fight for them in the Courts’.

Inter dimensions of Europeanisation
• Throughout the 1970s, foreign travel increased and Irish people began to notice and take an interest in what was happening on the continent.
• Plus influxes of returned emigrants when the economy improved in the 1970s, led to changing social attitudes (a tendency that was even more marked with the influx of returned emigrants associated with economic boom of the 1990s).
• Increasing access to ‘outside world’ challenges Irish insularity.
• Significant influence of ‘homing pigeons’

(Fitzgerald, J., 2000:30).

The returning emigrants have brought with them the experience of business and culture outside Ireland.
• Election, in 1990, of Mary Robinson as President of Ireland was widely viewed - by Irish political practitioners and commentators alike - as evidence of changing values in Ireland.

The highest levels of support for Mary Robinson do coincide with the highest levels of support for other liberal legislation (the Constitutional referenda on abortion, divorce and abortion information in 1983, 1986 and 1992 respectively). Nevertheless, Mary Robinson was elected with 77% of the vote, a level of support that she more than maintained throughout her Presidency. The widespread and enthusiastic support enjoyed by Mary Robinson is ‘indicative of a developing self-image in Ireland: that of a modernising state, which is beginning to acknowledge diversity of tradition, religion, and values across the island’

(Adshead, 1996:141).

What more proof do you need?
 
influx

>What will a massive influx of cheap and desperate labourers mean for the Irish market?

Is it considered good for this society to use the exploitation of foreign workers to force Irish people into the dole queues?

You might consider changing your name there brain. It's precisely this influx that is about to catipult the Irish economy back into boom and is largely dependent on it happening.
 
Turkey

All very interesting But, however a link to the origin of that article would be helpful. Who are Galligan, Adshead and Fitzgerald? Are they EU spokespersons?

Nothing in those quotes is founded on anything more substantial than their personal opinion and spin. I have my own opinion too, which is this;
Turkish society at ground level today is not comparable to the backward Irish society that existed 30 years ago because of one major factor, and that is - the fundamental difference between Islamic culture and western Christianity. Modern Christianity (even the repressive Catholic format which existed here in the 50's and 60's) is not as permenantly and inextricably linked to the mechanisms of state law and culture as its Islamic counterpart.
I would argue that post reformation europe was inevitably bound for the separation of church from state, and greater freedom of conscience right from the start. This process was held up in certain parts (e.g. Ireland) by local conditions, including in our case the occupation of a foreign power which was oppressive and seemed to wish to foist change on the reluctant population. In that case the church (and its backward ways) became a form of symbolic resistance to the occupation. The 'troubles' in NI are still misunderstood by many as a 'Religious war' for that very reason.

So, instead of giving the EU the credit for change I think that the credit is traced right back to the reformation in europe.

As you no doubt are aware, Islam has experienced no such Reformation. The same backward linkage between 'church' and state that existed in medieval europe still exists in Islamic countries, where law and culture are dictated entirely by reference to the Koran, not (as Mr.Erdogan so eloquently put it) to 'imperfect western morals'.

FTurner, your comment is revealing in that you do not advocate Turkish entry to the EU for the good of the Turkish people, but rather because you see it as a selfish issue of self interest for Ireland. You ignored Brains point about the treatment foreign workers receive here, obviously that doesn't matter to you because the 'boom and is largely dependent on it happening'.
 
Turkey

Fturner, the 10 recent accession countries to the EU brought approximately 45 million potential new workers into the community, all legal and ready to labour for the greater good of the Celtic Tiger.
Do you not think that is enough?
Why do we need Turkey then?

ElCid would also be pleased to note (as indeed I am) that the vast majority of those new entrants are Christian.


[broken link removed]
 
who

ELCid = Tizona = Brain.

We hope so. Otherwise there are more than one of this mentality.