Should Turkey be allowed join the EU?

Turks in EU

I read somewhere that Turks in EU contribute over €50 billion a year. What does Irish contribute? Or those newly entered 10 countries? Most recent link I can find is www.medea.be/?page=10&lang=fr&doc=1650 .
If Irish build US , Turks build Europe.
 
Turkey

Go to Germany and talk to any German and you will get a taste of how despised the Turks are. They are not all hard working model citizens, you know. Go to the other EC country that is a net contributer to the EC, that is the UK, and overall do you think Turkey has contributed much to the UK way of life? Has it contributed much to the New York way of life ? We do not owe the Turks anything, and already give these countries enough.
Charity begins at home.
 
pooor James!

The second phase-the largest stretch-of the Ballincollig bypass has been finished by a Turkish company last week.And hold on to your seat:For millions of euros less than expected and in months less time than expected.
By Turkish workers.With the shovels and picks in their hands,working all days of the week.
Today-on a Sunday-I passed the site of phase 3 of the Ballincollig bypass:all men working!Saving millions and millions of €uros to the Irish .By damned hard labour.
When the official opening of the second phase was last week the workers got ONE day off.ONE day.
It reminds me on the Irish working in Britain 40 years ago.And Britain is no net contributor to the EU,in their whole EU history they have been only ONCE a net contributor,decades ago that was.As a result they voted for Maggy who threatened to quit the membership if that happens again .Poor James.Charity begins at home-from which mentally impoverished background do you come from?
Could it be that you have talked to former "socialist
workers" in Germany about their "despise of Turkish labourers"?Because they speak as much English as you speak German.....and they used to work so hard that their entire state went bankrupt....
 
re: poor James!

Heinbloed, well said!

So James, turks have built a fab new bypass in Cork, within budget and six months ahead of schedule, what then are your marvellous contributions then to Irish society that you feel that you are in a position to slag off Turks?

I have lived in Germany and the only Germans I have ever heard complain about Turks are an uneducated minority who contribute very little to German society themselves.

Sounds like a similar situation here.


Heinbloed - Must smile every time I am on the Ballincollig bypass and I pass the large sign giving directions to KANTURK! Was this a private joke amongst the Turks?
 
James, there are many valid reasons for having reservations about Turkey join the EU and I am sure if you tried you could phrase your points in such a way that they could not be dismissed as racist generalisations. When you post like this you are asking other posters to blow your arguments out of the water.
I think if you talked about cultural differences and the burden that Turkish membership would place on EU structural funds, along with the time it would take to modernise it’s economy as well as the internal security implications of having a large land border with unstable middle-eastern countries others would not be able to dismiss your views so easily.
I am not saying that I agree with you but what you have to say should be heard.
Sorry if I sound patronising. In fact; sorry, I do sound patronising.
 
Turkey

Heinbloed, you are actually wrong about the UK's contribution to the EC. They , and Germany, have been actually the two biggest contributers over the years.

Just because the Turks work for less money and work harder on a road project in Cork does not mean their homeland should automatically be admitted to the EC.
 
british eu contributions

You are right James,the British EU contributions are the second largest .Even if they get their "special British discount",I checked the euro stat homepage.
The "Turks " are made up of several different population groups,not all are extreme nationalists or religious fanatics.
There are the Kurds,the Alevites,what is left of the Armenians and several others.If it wasn't for the NATO backing up the Turkish military that state would have fallen apart a long time ago.The bad human rights record that the Turkish state undoubtedly has is a consequence of permanent suppression of everything that was/is threatening the power of the elite class-the military and their civil representatives-and the power of NATO .
Did you get the news that a few years ago the driver of
the president drove around several high ranking heroin dealers,in the states car no.1 belonging to the president?Only because they where involved in an accident it appeared in the press. On bord of president Ciller's car where several internationally wanted (interpol)Mafiosos incl. states enemy no2-making use of the immunity of the states president.Ciller lost her presidency about it. Well, one year later the daughter of the Turkish ex-president married the son of Germans chancellor Helmut Kohl .Then he got in trouble when he had to explain where he got the money for his election campaigns-millions had not been accounted,black money.He said to the parliament commission that he has promised to his "friends"not to say where the money came from.....

Both families profited under the deal,since we signed the international human rights convention the family is protected.IF the Turkish office of public prosecution wants Ciller she can come to Germany and live with her family,protected by the human rights convention and a diplomatic passport.And if the German states attorney wants Kohl ,well,he has family in Turkey.....
The Sicilian word for family is "Mafia",it suits in this case.
Should we still allow the Germans to reside in the EU?After all the German parliament commission decided not to follow the obvious track because of "Kohl's extraordinary engagement for the reunification"-in fact they rang him out of bed at 8 in the morning when the wall came down the evening before.
And you complain about Turkey and how different they are?!Money makes the world go round .
 
Turkey

I wouldn't let them in. Those feckin Muslims. They bad. Me good. Me Christian. Beat chest. They no understand good west. Bad. Kill. Wipe them out!

Errr...isn't that what your brother muslim OBL is trying to do to us in the west?
Think you have things backwards mate.
 
Turkey

Fantastic article in todays SBP on this issue. Glad to see some are realising what this will cost us all.

An Islamic Europe?

03/10/04 00:00

By Kieron Wood

Last Sunday, an emergency session of the Turkish parliament dropped proposals to criminalise adultery as part of reforms of the country's penal code.

The capitulation followed a meeting in Brussels between the European Union's Enlargement Commissioner, Gunter Verheugen, and Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

Erdogan had initially warned the EU not to interfere in Turkey's "internal affairs''. He had argued that Turkish membership of the European Union did not mean it had to adopt the EU's "imperfect'' western morals.

But Verheugen insisted that if the Turkish prime minister went ahead with plans to make adultery a criminal offence, the European Commission would not back Turkey's planned accession to the EU.

The commission is due to report on Wednesday whether Turkey has met the economic and political criteria necessary for the start of accession talks. EU heads of state will make a final decision in December.

A commission impact assessment, leaked to Reuters last Thursday, said that Turkish membership could cost the EU between €16 billion and €28 billion a year, although the economies of EU member states would benefit from Turkish accession, "albeit only slightly''.

The Irish government has so far taken no official view on Turkey's application, but other European countries have been less reticent.

The EU's internal market chief, Frits Bolkestein, warned last month that Europe could meet the same fate as the Austro-Hungarian empire if Turkey was allowed to join the EU.

Bolkestein quoted American Islamic expert Bernard Lewis as saying that Europe would be Islamic by the end of the 21st century. "If he is right, the liberation of Vienna in 1683 [when Christian troops defeated an invading Muslim army] would have been in vain," said the commissioner.

In his speech at the University of Leiden, Bolkestein said EU leaders had hardly discussed the issue when they agreed in Helsinki in 1999 to consider Turkey's candidacy. "There was a three-minute debate - very thorough," he told Dutch television last week.

The commissioner said current trends supported only one conclusion: "The United States remains the sole superpower, China will become an economic giant, Europe is becoming more Islamic."

It wasn't the first time the Dutch commissioner had highlighted the dangers of the Islamicisation of Europe.

"Within but a few short years, the populations of four big cities [in the Netherlands] will have a predominantly nonwestern background and the majority religion will be Islam," he said last year. "It is high time to speak about these matters in plain terms.

"Christianity and the Bible have been subject to a tidal wave of criticism for around 500 years. Why should we not be entitled to criticise Islam and the Koran?

"Do we live in a free country or not?" Apparently, the answer is 'not'. After Bolkestein's countryman Pim Fortuyn warned about the Islamicisation of Dutch culture and the "backwardness'' of Islam two years ago, the populist politician was assassinated.


Opponents of Turkey's entry into the EU point to the fact that this nation of 72 million people - while ostensibly a secular state - is overwhelmingly Islamic by religion. They fear that a tide of Turkish immigrants could change the historic Christian tradition of Europe forever.

Around 15million Muslims lived in the 15 nations of the EU before May 1, excluding illegal immigrants. Of those, almost four million are Turks. Last week's study said safeguard clauses could be considered to avoid serious disturbances in the EU labour market if there were "significant additional migration'' from Turkey.

Ireland's experience of Turkish immigration is limited, as there are only 545 Turkish-born people living in the state.

But the situation in other countries is very different. In Germany, there are 2.6 million Turkish gastarbeiter (guest workers).

France, the Netherlands, Austria and Belgium also have large Turkish immigrant populations. Many politicians in those countries oppose Turkey's membership on cultural grounds.

Austrian agriculture commissioner Franz Fischler, in a recent letter to Verheugen that was leaked to the media, said that Turkey was a "sui generis society, far more oriental than European'' and its professed secularism was "only skin deep''.

He said that, while Islam continued to be the preferred religion of Turks, there was "no guarantee'' against a fundamentalist backlash.

Former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt said Turkey did not belong in the EU because "the decisive and essential developments that formed European culture - the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the separation of clerical and political authority - are missing from the Islamic tradition''.

The president of the EU constitutional convention, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, warned that granting Turkey membership "would be the end of the EU''.


Last week, French finance minister Nicolas Sarkozy predicted that it would be at least 15 years before Turkey joined the EU - and he called for a referendum in France first. French prime minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin questioned how Turkish governments could persuade Turkish society to embrace Europe's human rights values.

"Do we want the river of Islam to enter the riverbed of secularism?" he asked.

Even the Vatican joined in. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has maintained that from a historical and political point of view, Turkey represents a continent that is in "permanent contrast to Europe'' and should not be in the EU.

This surge of anti-Islamic sentiment was boosted by a poll last month indicating that Turkey's application was supported by only one in three Britons, one in four Germans and just one in six French people.

The US and British governments have actively lobbied for Turkish membership of the EU. At a Nato summit in Istanbul earlier this summer, President George Bush said that, "as a European power, Turkey belongs in the European Union''.

Bush said Turkish membership of the EU would prove that "Europe is not the exclusive club of a single religion'' and would be "a crucial advance in relations between the Muslim world and the west''.

But the majority of EU citizens appear not to want closer relations with the Muslim world - not least because of the worldwide association between Islam and terrorism.

Following the Beslan school siege, one leading Arab media commentator, Abdel Rahman al-Rashed of the al-Arabiya news channel, admitted that, while not all Muslims were terrorists, it was certain that almost all terrorists were Muslims - "sour grapes of a deformed culture'', as he called them.

Writing in the newspaper al-Sharq al-Awsat, al-Rashed pointed out that the Beslan hostage-takers were Muslims, the hostage-takers and killers of the Nepalese workers in Iraq were Muslims and those involved in rape and murder in Darfur, Sudan, were Muslims.

Those responsible for the attacks on residential towers in Riyadh and Khobar were also Muslims, he said, as were the Chechen women who crashed two airliners in Russia.

"Bin Laden is a Muslim. The majority of those who manned the suicide bombings against buses, vehicles, schools, houses and buildings, all over the world, were Muslims," he said.

"What a pathetic record. What an abominable 'achievement'. Does all this tell us anything about ourselves, our societies and our culture?"

In a different era, he said, extremists were considered a menace because of their adoption of violence. Then came the neo-Muslims. "An innocent and benevolent religion. . .has been turned into a global message of hate," he said.

"Terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women."

Even some of his co-religionists agree.

Kamal Nawash, the Washington-based president of the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism, confessed: "Fundamentalist Islamic terror represents one of the most lethal threats to the stability of the civilised world."
(I recently had a thread deleted by the moderators on this BB for daring to repeat these very comments!)

A spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, Inayat Bunglawala, contended that Muslims were "just as appalled by this barbarity as anyone else''.

But Irish Muslim convert Khalid Kelly, a supporter of the British Islamic fundamentalist group al-Muhajiroun, insisted: "Anyone who says terrorism is not part of Islam is wrong. It's an Islamic responsibility to fight. We are all terrorists."

Nobody suggests that all Turks are terrorists. But Turkey's social and religious influence on the European Union could have a longer-lasting effect than any number of bombs and bullets.

By 2050,Turkey will have an estimated 100million citizens - more than any other EU country. With EU voting rights tied to population size, future Turkish decisions in the EU could change the face of Europe forever.


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...

"Do we want the river of Islam to enter the riverbed of secularism?" he asked."



Firstly: Turkey is a secular country


"Even the Vatican joined in. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has maintained that from a historical and political point of view, Turkey represents a continent that is in "permanent contrast to Europe'' and should not be in the EU."



Secondly: This is a joke ... right?

What about Ireland in the 1970s? The Catholic Church told people how to run their lives. There was no divorce, no contraception. It was precisely because of the EU that events changed in Ireland. Turkey should be able to benefit by its inclusion as well.



Thirdly: What will the poplulation of the EU be in 2050? What percentage of the total vote will Turkey have? 15%? 20%? It won't be any more significant than Germany's current voting strength.
 
Turkey

Firstly: Turkey is a secular country

"Austrian agriculture commissioner Franz Fischler, in a recent letter to Verheugen that was leaked to the media, said that Turkey was a "sui generis society, far more oriental than European'' [ul]and its professed secularism was "only skin deep''.[/ul]

What about Ireland in the 1970s? The Catholic Church told people how to run their lives. There was no divorce, no contraception. It was precisely because of the EU that events changed in Ireland. Turkey should be able to benefit by its inclusion as well.

"precisely because of the EU that events changed in Irel
? Please explain that. Provide some evidence that the EU had ANYTHING to do with changes in Irish mores.

What will the poplulation of the EU be in 2050? What percentage of the total vote will Turkey have? 15%? 20%? It won't be any more significant than Germany's current voting strength.

"Within but a few short years, the populations of four big cities [in the Netherlands] will have a predominantly nonwestern background and the majority religion will be Islam"
"Opponents of Turkey's entry into the EU point to the fact that this nation of 72 million people - while ostensibly a secular state - is overwhelmingly Islamic by religion."
"Around 15million Muslims lived in the 15 nations of the EU before May 1, excluding illegal immigrants. Of those, almost four million are Turks."
"In Germany, there are 2.6 million Turkish gastarbeiter (guest workers)."

Add these to the existing Muslim populations of europe and I begin to get worried for the future direction of our european democracies.

I do not want to see a growing underclass of poor immigrant muslims with an axe to grind against their host countries in europe and little intention of ever accepting "imperfect'' western values (per Mr.Erdogan) or integrating fully into that imperfect western society.
 
Re: ...

...b y the way, the Turkish contractor has done such a great job on the Ballincollig by pass (within time & budget), that I now believe that they have been awarded a section of the Ennis bypass to constuct also....
 
Bypass

Are Irish people working on this project?
Are the Turkish workers being paid Irish rates?
Or are they being exploited mercilessly, like so many other foreign workers in this fine country?

What will a massive influx of cheap and desperate labourers mean for the Irish market?

Is it considered good for this society to use the exploitation of foreign workers to force Irish people into the dole queues?
 
some backup

Intra dimensions of Europeanisation


Legal obligations of EU membership, relating to non-discrimination and equality of pay, began to challenge attitudes to women, the workplace and the family.
• Throughout the 1970s, individual women began to challenge the constitutionality of laws that discriminated against them.
• Judiciary and Court system begin to develop interpretations of constitutional rights.
Between 1971 and 1987, there were 45 major challenges relating to sex discrimination and equal rights

This, combined with the emergence of Irish feminism and a belated acknowledgement from the government that action needed to be taken, led to a significant shift in attitudes and values.
Still, it was always the need to conform to legal obligations arising as a consequence of EU membership that proved most effective in securing economic - and therefore more expensive - rights. The rights of women to work after marriage, to equal pay and to equal opportunities, to maternity leave, and to equal social welfare allowances, were only granted by the Oireachtas when, and sometimes long after, it was obliged to grant these rights by EU membership

(Galligan, 1998:68-89).


Any advances in women’s rights that could cost money were always vigorously resisted by the legislature’ and ‘might have been won by women without the intervention of the EC, had they had the resources and energy to fight for them in the Courts’.

Inter dimensions of Europeanisation
• Throughout the 1970s, foreign travel increased and Irish people began to notice and take an interest in what was happening on the continent.
• Plus influxes of returned emigrants when the economy improved in the 1970s, led to changing social attitudes (a tendency that was even more marked with the influx of returned emigrants associated with economic boom of the 1990s).
• Increasing access to ‘outside world’ challenges Irish insularity.
• Significant influence of ‘homing pigeons’

(Fitzgerald, J., 2000:30).

The returning emigrants have brought with them the experience of business and culture outside Ireland.
• Election, in 1990, of Mary Robinson as President of Ireland was widely viewed - by Irish political practitioners and commentators alike - as evidence of changing values in Ireland.

The highest levels of support for Mary Robinson do coincide with the highest levels of support for other liberal legislation (the Constitutional referenda on abortion, divorce and abortion information in 1983, 1986 and 1992 respectively). Nevertheless, Mary Robinson was elected with 77% of the vote, a level of support that she more than maintained throughout her Presidency. The widespread and enthusiastic support enjoyed by Mary Robinson is ‘indicative of a developing self-image in Ireland: that of a modernising state, which is beginning to acknowledge diversity of tradition, religion, and values across the island’

(Adshead, 1996:141).

What more proof do you need?
 
influx

>What will a massive influx of cheap and desperate labourers mean for the Irish market?

Is it considered good for this society to use the exploitation of foreign workers to force Irish people into the dole queues?

You might consider changing your name there brain. It's precisely this influx that is about to catipult the Irish economy back into boom and is largely dependent on it happening.
 
Turkey

All very interesting But, however a link to the origin of that article would be helpful. Who are Galligan, Adshead and Fitzgerald? Are they EU spokespersons?

Nothing in those quotes is founded on anything more substantial than their personal opinion and spin. I have my own opinion too, which is this;
Turkish society at ground level today is not comparable to the backward Irish society that existed 30 years ago because of one major factor, and that is - the fundamental difference between Islamic culture and western Christianity. Modern Christianity (even the repressive Catholic format which existed here in the 50's and 60's) is not as permenantly and inextricably linked to the mechanisms of state law and culture as its Islamic counterpart.
I would argue that post reformation europe was inevitably bound for the separation of church from state, and greater freedom of conscience right from the start. This process was held up in certain parts (e.g. Ireland) by local conditions, including in our case the occupation of a foreign power which was oppressive and seemed to wish to foist change on the reluctant population. In that case the church (and its backward ways) became a form of symbolic resistance to the occupation. The 'troubles' in NI are still misunderstood by many as a 'Religious war' for that very reason.

So, instead of giving the EU the credit for change I think that the credit is traced right back to the reformation in europe.

As you no doubt are aware, Islam has experienced no such Reformation. The same backward linkage between 'church' and state that existed in medieval europe still exists in Islamic countries, where law and culture are dictated entirely by reference to the Koran, not (as Mr.Erdogan so eloquently put it) to 'imperfect western morals'.

FTurner, your comment is revealing in that you do not advocate Turkish entry to the EU for the good of the Turkish people, but rather because you see it as a selfish issue of self interest for Ireland. You ignored Brains point about the treatment foreign workers receive here, obviously that doesn't matter to you because the 'boom and is largely dependent on it happening'.
 
Turkey

Fturner, the 10 recent accession countries to the EU brought approximately 45 million potential new workers into the community, all legal and ready to labour for the greater good of the Celtic Tiger.
Do you not think that is enough?
Why do we need Turkey then?

ElCid would also be pleased to note (as indeed I am) that the vast majority of those new entrants are Christian.

New entrants bring their faith to the EU

21 April 2004

When 10 new countries enter the European Union on May 1, millions of Christians will bring their faith with them, hoping the prosperity membership will bring will not lead to secularisation.

From Poland and Slovakia in central Europe, to Lithuania in the Baltics and the Mediterranean island of Malta, the new EU entrants all have more people practicising religion than current EU members.

"In the 10 new member states, the number of believers is much higher than in the majority of western countries," Tadeusz Szawiela, a religious sociologist at Warsaw University told AFP.

Even current EU members with large numbers of Catholics or Protestants, practise their faith less than their eastern counterparts.

While 31 percent of Dutch people, for example, say they are Catholic, only eight percent of them are practising, while of 21 percent of stated Protestants, only nine percent go to church.

France and Belgium, countries with large Roman Catholic populations, have to bring in priests from central Europe.

And no more so than from Poland, the country of Pope John Paul II, which in 2000 accounted for 12 percent of European priests and one out of every 20 Catholic priest in the world.

Fifteen years of economic and political transformations since the fall of communism have not changed Poland's devoutness, with more than 90 percent of Poles saying the are Roman Catholic, with 50 percent practising regularly.

Only the Maltese are more Catholic than the Poles, with 95 percent of its 395,000 inhabitants saying they are Catholic, with 65 percent practising.

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who

ELCid = Tizona = Brain.

We hope so. Otherwise there are more than one of this mentality.
 
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