Should I switch some of my pension fund to cash as I approach retirement?

It is doubtful if a real life investor would follow the withdrawal pattern you suggest
Well, a balanced fund (which I imagine most real life investors hold in their ARFs) would rebalance periodically to maintain a consistent asset allocation.

If you rebalanced the portfolio following a drawdown in the equity portfolio, you would obviously increase the impact of the subsequent equity returns, while maintaining the original allocation.
 
...but to the extent that they are disconnected...
But they cannot be disconnected to any extent - dividend payments simply come off of the share price (as determined by the market).

We are obviously talking at cross purposes so I will leave it there.
 
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@Gordon Gekko

You are arguing against points I haven't made and are forgetting your original comparison which was a basket of equities compared to retail deposits. The latter would never make any sense for anyone with a decades-long investment horizon.

Otherwise you claimed:


You can look this up and find that real yields on 10-year UK bonds were about 0.2% 1945-1980.

It is (as you would expect) a miserable return compared to equities, but it is not a wipe out.

Aside: what was the return for an Irish investor! Irish retirees care less about the local gbp experience and more about the Irish/euro experience.
 
thanks for the informative discussion ,one of the concerns i have is with drawing down 4% from the ARF , paying tax/stamp , AMC , brokers trailing fee etc., if i dont invest my pension Longterm in Global equities (s&p500) to counter the above secondary drawdowns then the sum will prob run out anyway , so to me there are risks on both sides ,

this is the crux of the issue.

this is first and foremost a financial planning question as I set out in this post


The endless debating of an objectively imprudent investment strategy is simply a side show
 
Well, a balanced fund (which I imagine most real life investors hold in their ARFs) would rebalance periodically to maintain a consistent asset allocation.

If you rebalanced the portfolio following a drawdown in the equity portfolio, you would obviously increase the impact of the subsequent equity returns, while maintaining the original allocation.
Your wish is my command!
I re-did the sums, assuming the portfolio was rebalanced each year-end, aiming always for a 50:50 distribution between bonds and equities (but purely by splitting the total withdrawal between bonds and equities, not by selling bonds). This resulted in the entire withdrawal being taken completely from the bond portion of the portfolio for the first three years, and being taken more from equities than bonds in subsequent years (because of the differential performance of the equities). The final fund value on this assumption was 152, compared with 150 on the alternative assumption, and 235 assuming 100% in equities throughout. I think I've proved my point, no matter how you look at it.
 
Hi Colm,

Would you consider just paying the tax in a ‘down year’ and not taking the full distribution?

i.e. you’re not compelled to take 6% and could choose to just lose less than 3% in a down year
 
Aside: what was the return for an Irish investor! Irish retirees care less about the local gbp experience and more about the Irish/euro experience.
There aren't reliable statistics but probably something pretty similar given currency union and economic integration with the UK.
 
Would you consider just paying the tax in a ‘down year’ and not taking the full distribution?
Hi Gordon. No is the quick answer. I recall once looking at this option briefly and concluding that it was equivalent to throwing money down the drain. It's too late for me to revisit my logic, but if no-one else responds, I'll try to get back to you in the morning.
In any event, as I said in a previous post, I've never been 'embarrassed' into having to sell investments in order to withdraw the ARF income. I keep a small cash float, generally in the region 2% to 5%. That, plus dividend receipts, plus the occasional share sale (decided on for portfolio reasons, because the share has fallen out of favour) have always proved sufficient to generate the necessary funds. As I think I said earlier, I withdraw monthly. That was not always the case, especially when I earned a reasonable income from part-time work (which is no longer the case). I withdrew at odd times during the year, but always withdrew what was required for tax purposes.
 
I re-did the sums, assuming the portfolio was rebalanced each year-end, aiming always for a 50:50 distribution between bonds and equities (but purely by splitting the total withdrawal between bonds and equities, not by selling bonds).
But how do you rebalance back to a 50/50 allocation without selling bonds to buy equities at the end of Year 1? I don't follow.
 
But they cannot be disconnected to any extent - dividend payments simply come off of the share price (as determined by the market).

We are obviously talking at cross purposes so I will leave it there.
Yes we'll leave it there. You cannot or will not see the point. Maybe my pedagogical shortcomings.
I will take the opportunity of the last word.
Taking a dividend is not in any way economically the same as selling the shares no more than receiving rents is economically the same as a part sale of a property.
 
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Hi Gordon. No is the quick answer. I recall once looking at this option briefly and concluding that it was equivalent to throwing money down the drain. It's too late for me to revisit my logic, but if no-one else responds, I'll try to get back to you in the morning.
In any event, as I said in a previous post, I've never been 'embarrassed' into having to sell investments in order to withdraw the ARF income. I keep a small cash float, generally in the region 2% to 5%. That, plus dividend receipts, plus the occasional share sale (decided on for portfolio reasons, because the share has fallen out of favour) have always proved sufficient to generate the necessary funds. As I think I said earlier, I withdraw monthly. That was not always the case, especially when I earned a reasonable income from part-time work (which is no longer the case). I withdrew at odd times during the year, but always withdrew what was required for tax purposes.
Thanks Colm.

I wonder about the logic of it.

Say my ARF is worth €2m and to keep things simple my marginal rate of tax is 50%.

I can take my 6% as normal, i.e. €120k, net €60k.

Then my ARF is worth €1.88m and I’ve €60k in cash.

If I invest the €60k, my returns will be subject to CGT and marginal rate income tax.

Assuming their CAT thresholds will be used up, my kids will pay 33% CAT if they inherit the €60k.

Alternatively, I could just ask my QFM to pay 3% of the value of the ARF, i.e. €60k to Revenue, leaving €1.94m in my ARF.

The ‘other’ €60k is now still in the ARF so it can grow tax-free. And if my kids inherit it, they’ll only pay 30% tax.

Regards,

Gordon
 
Isnt the rent analogy somewhat incorrect because rent is not paid out of the value of the house - its an income derived from the house but its payment doesnt reduce the value of the house.

Whereas, If share value is based on value of the company and if distributing cash dividends from that company to shareholders reduces cash reserves in the company would that not mean the value of the company and therefore the share value is reduced by the dividend amount?
 
Isnt the rent analogy somewhat incorrect because rent is not paid out of the value of the house - its an income derived from the house but its payment doesnt reduce the value of the house.
Dividends are paid from income earned by the real assets of the company not by sale of those real assets. Totally analogous.
 
But how do you rebalance back to a 50/50 allocation without selling bonds to buy equities at the end of Year 1? I don't follow.
Do you realise how petty you're being? I already wrote: "I re-did the sums, assuming the portfolio was rebalanced each year-end, aiming always for a 50:50 distribution between bonds and equities (but purely by splitting the total withdrawal between bonds and equities, not by selling bonds)."
I'll say it again, slightly differently in case you didn't get it the first time: I'm AIMING for a 50:50 distribution, but not to the extreme of selling bonds to achieve that aim. That means taking the withdrawal entirely from the bond portfolio for the first three years.
I really don't understand why you're labouring this point. We have already seen that the first refinement you asked for makes very little difference. The additional refinement of allowing for bonds to be sold in the first year would probably change the result by tuppence halfpenny. So what?
@Gordon Gekko I haven't really looked at your latest note. Sorry. I'll get back to you on your far more sensible question tomorrow, if no-one else has addressed it in the meantime.
 
They have a choice of two investments:
(a) 100% in equities, which return -30% in the first year, then 6% a year from there on.
(b) 50% in equities, with the same returns as (a), the other 50% in bonds, which return a level 2% a year (i.e. an ERP of 4% after year 1).
Each year, the withdrawal of 45k is taken from equities or bonds in proportion to their value at the time.

After 30 years, the residual fund value under (a) is 235k; under (b), the residual fund value is 150k.
There is a bit of sleight of hand here Colm. You are putting all the equity losses into the period before most of the drawdowns have been made!

Spread the 30% loss over the first five years, then assume a more aggressive recovery to get the same average return over the period. So about a 7% negative return for 5 years, then a positive 7% return for the next 25 years.

In this scenario the residual value of the fund under (a) is -€113k, and (b) is -€24k. So basically there is too much drawdown in the yearly years for you to be able to grow your way out of trouble. In the scenario with 50% bonds they actually do have the effect of mitigating the sequence risk on the equity share of the portfolio, despite having a much lower average return, and you nearly break even.

Don't get me wrong. I am not a bond fanatic. An equity risk premium exists, and the younger you are the more heavily you should be invested in equities. At age 40 you should be thinking about the value of your portfolio in 50 years time, not in 25 when you'll retire and over that horizon equities will almost always do better.

I've said earlier on this thread that there is basically no upside to bond prices right now given that yields are at or close to their natural floor given the zero lower bound for interest rates. So if bonds outperform equities in the near future it will very likely be because of falls in equity prices, not increases in bond prices.

But, and this is a big but, an all-equity investment strategy in retirement can have a nasty downside given the difficulty of growing your way out of a very bad set of returns earlier in the period as demonstrated. If it was me at 65 with a full SPC, mortgage paid off and kids through college I would aim to be in about 80% equities and gradually reduce that to 50% by 85.

Otherwise I don't think that any ex ante strategy is totally robust to every set of circumstances. It makes sense to deviate if the world changes around you by rebalancing or changing your lifestyle. You've done every well - and I'm glad for you - but it's been a lucky time and place to do so and I doubt the next 11 years will be as fruitful as the last!
 
There is a bit of sleight of hand here Colm. You are putting all the equity losses into the period before most of the drawdowns have been made!
Yes! That was what was asked of me! I gave the history of how my ARF had performed, to be told that I was lucky not to have experienced a severe fall at the start. I duly obliged by showing the result if I had experienced that severe fall at the outset.
 
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Spread the 30% loss over the first five years, then assume a more aggressive recovery to get the same average return over the period. So about a 7% negative return for 5 years, then a positive 7% return for the next 25 years
So you're asking me to assume a 12% loss relative to expectations each year for the first five years, a cumulative 60% loss relative to expectations (but bearing in mind my earlier comments about arithmetic calculations in such circumstances) ?
I don't need to do any sums to know that that would spell curtains!
 
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It is great to see posters on here prepared to get involved in the above discussion,

thanks to all of you for getting involved and not standing on the sideline,
 
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