Should I switch some of my pension fund to cash as I approach retirement?

Because it has less cash
Exactly. And that comes off the share price.
Funds don't pay dividends either
There are accumulating funds and distributing funds (US mutual funds, for example, are required to distribute all income and realised capital gains).

Guess what? The NAV per share of a distributing fund falls by the amount of the declared dividend as soon as the fund goes ex-dividend.

Again, there is nothing magical about dividends. Pocketing a dividend from a distributing fund is the same thing as redeeming shares to the value of the dividend in an accumulating version of the same fund. The investor ends up in precisely the same financial position in either case.

Surely you can see that?
 
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Exactly. And that comes off the share price.

There are accumulating funds and distributing funds (US mutual funds, for example, are required to distribute all income and realised capital gains).

Guess what? The NAV per share of a distributing fund falls by the amount of the declared dividend as soon as the fund goes ex-dividend.

Again, there is nothing magical about dividends. Pocketing a dividend from a distributing fund is the same thing as selling shares to the value of the dividend in an accumulating version of the same fund. The investor ends up in precisely the same financial position in either case.

Surely you can see that?
You are really making me tear my hair out at this stage, and it is thin enough. I make straightforward examples and you cite exceptions to the rule such as dividend paying mutuals, or shares which are in effect funds, which are totally irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. I will shout it one more time.

TAKING A DIVIDEND IS NOT THE SAME ECONOMICALLY AS SELLING SHARES

In more subdued tones "receiving a rent is not economically the same as selling a piece of the property".
 
But for you: life expectancy of a 61-year-old male is about 22,
Sadly, those of us in drawdown cannot plan on the basis of life expectancy. We must plan on the assumption that we'll stay around for quite a while longer than the life expectancy for our age. That's a common mistake by financial advisers.
As a long-standing investor in real businesses, I view equity risk in a different light to theoretical investors. I gave one example on pages 8 to 10 of my January paper, of one of my core investments, whose price fell by half despite the fundamentals of the business remaining broadly unchanged. Another example is a company whose share I've held for at least seven years. The dividend hasn't fallen once in the last eight years at least, and management has indicated that the dividend is safe for the next 20 years. The dividend now is almost 50% more than it was 10 years ago. Yet I can buy that share now for a dividend yield of 7%. Its price now is over 50% higher than in March 2020. Was I worried then? Am I worried now? Do you think I should transfer some of the money earning a dividend yield of 7% to an asset that will yield me zero - or probably less?
 
In more subdued tones "receiving a rent is not economically the same as selling a piece of the property".
Nobody said it was. But receiving rent on a property is not analogous to receiving a dividend on a share.

Take your property holding company example. The company receives rent on its property. It now has a choice, it can retain the cash or it can distribute the cash to its shareholders.

If it distributes the cash to its shareholders, the value of their shares will fall by an amount corresponding to the dividend payment. Alternatively, if it retains the cash on its balance sheet, this cash amount will continue to be reflected in the value of its shares.

So far, so good?

A shareholder wants the cash to pay his bills.

If the company distributes the cash, then the shareholder will receive the cash and his shares will have a correspondingly lower value. However, if the company retains the cash, the shareholder will have to sell shares (the value of which still reflects the retained cash) to generate the cash.

Either way, the shareholder ends up in exactly the same financial position - he either has the same number of shares with a lower value (because the cash has been distributed by the company) or less shares with a higher value (because the cash has been retained by the company).

Dividends are not an independent source of income that is disconnected from the share price or capital value of the shares to which they relate. To think otherwise is sometimes called the "free dividend fallacy".
 
Take your property holding company example. The company receives rent on its property. It now has a choice, it can retain the cash or it can distribute the cash to its shareholders.

If it distributes the cash to its shareholders, the value of their shares will fall by an amount corresponding to the dividend payment. Alternatively, if it retains the cash on its balance sheet, this cash amount will continue to be reflected in the value of its shares.
@Sarenco. I think you're getting confused by cum-div and ex-div status for shares. Of course the share price falls when the dividend is paid. Get back to @Duke of Marmalade 's example of someone with a rental property, or my example cited above of a company paying a dividend of 7% a year like clockwork. Yes, of course the share price falls by half of 7% every time the share goes xd. So what? I just hang around for the next half-year's dividend.
 
Yes, of course the share price falls by half of 7% every time the share goes xd.
But that's the whole point!

You could equally sell shares to the value of 3.5% of your shareholding to generate the cash with the same net result.

Again, unlike rent on a property, dividends are not an independent source of income that is disconnected from the capital value of the shares to which they relate.
 
A financial adviser whom I hold in high regard once told me that one of his biggest challenges was persuading clients to overcome their fear of losing money and to realise that, as long-term investors, they would be far better advised to invest in equities than bonds. This is despite what I could describe as the adviser's curse, quoted earlier:
We all worry about our money, and get upset if we make a loss on an investment. For a financial adviser, there is the additional trauma that the client could blame you for the loss even though your advice to invest in something could be absolutely kosher in probability terms. The problem for the financial adviser is that they are on a hiding to nothing. The client is likely to apportion at least part of the blame to the adviser if things go wrong, but to take the credit themselves if things go right. This makes the adviser even more loss-averse than the client, because of the asymmetrical payoffs. Rather than it being the reverse (as it should be in a rational world), the client has often to overcome the adviser's loss aversion. There are some notable exceptions.
Against that background, it is depressing to find advisers on this forum doing everything they can to frighten people off investing in equities.
One of the most ridiculous is this:
Imagine an investor that earns 10% on her portfolio in one year, and then loses 10% the next. The common mistake is to think that the investor would now be back to where she started. After all, the average of the two annual returns of +10% and-10% is simply 0%.

In actual fact, our investor would have lost 1% over the two years!

That’s an annual loss of about 0.5%

And the effect would have been even worse for more extreme movements. If the investor had instead gained 15% and then lost 15%, the net loss over the two years would have been 2.25%. 20% up and 20% down and the loss would have ballooned to 4% over two years.
Later, the same poster refers to prices being distributed lognormally, meaning that their logarithms are distributed normally. Translated into English, this means that the probability of a gain of 10% (over a very short period) is exactly the same as a loss of 9.09%. So why did @Marc choose to assume a loss of 10%? Was the purpose to frighten clients off investing in a volatile asset? That is exactly the opposite of what my financial adviser friend says is the challenge with his clients.
The same objective of frightening people off investing in equities is evident in the rubbish about arithmetic and geometric means, and in the reference to the so-called "volatility drag"
A simple example will show why arithmetic means are meaningless in this type of situation. Suppose I am considering an investment returning 0% in the first year and 12% in the second year. No one would be stupid enough to say that the average return over the two years is 6% a year (12% divided by 2). Anyone with a brain in their head will at least start by calculating what return they would need each year, reinvesting the proceeds, to have 112 after two years, which is 5.83%. If they're in the honours class, they may go on to calculate what they would need to earn if the return was paid half-yearly (5.75%). The 6% is a meaningless calculation, so I don't know why anyone bothers with it.
Then we get the reference to "Volatility drag".

VOLATILITY DRAG

This unfortunate effect is due to the fact that compound annual returns are always below average annual returns.
If anything, one could interpret the latter part of this post as saying that it should be called a volatility bonus rather than a volatility drag, because the expected return under @Marc's favoured lognormal distribution is e^(µ +0.5*σ^2). Thus, for any given µ, the higher the volatility (σ), the higher the expected return. @Marc should therefore be looking for investments with high σ for his clients!
In saying all that, I confess that I'm not an expert on stochastic calculus. I'm sure there are some such experts who will set us both right.
 
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@Sarenco. I can see why the Duke got frustrated. All other things being equal, the share price falls by half of the dividend payment at a moment in time every half year, then recovers all that loss evenly over the following six months so that the price is exactly the same every six months. The only difference being that the investor has received a half-year's dividend in the meantime. (I am assuming, of course, no change in the capital value of the share).
 
Sadly, those of us in drawdown cannot plan on the basis of life expectancy. We must plan on the assumption that we'll stay around for quite a while longer than the life expectancy for our age.
Okay so add 50% to your life expectancy at 61.

Your investment horizon is still not long enough to recover from a bad sequence of returns.

I'm still curious as to why you won't answer if your ex ante strategy could have dealt with the opposite set of equity performance than has occured since 2010.
 
If the company distributes the cash, then the shareholder will receive the cash and his shares will have a correspondingly lower value. However, if the company retains the cash, the shareholder will have to sell shares (the value of which still reflects the retained cash) to generate the cash.

Either way, the shareholder ends up in exactly the same financial position - he either has the same number of shares with a lower value (because the cash has been distributed by the company) or less shares with a higher value (because the cash has been retained by the company).
I think this gives me something on which to hang my refutation of your argument. Take a simplified example with distorted relativities. Let the company be either a property company or a widget making company.
The company is valued at time 0 at 1,100. This consists of 1,000 worth or property or a widget making machine plus 100 in the bank which has accrued from rents or sales of widgets. So the balance sheet of the investor at time 0 looks as follows:
Shares in company 1,100
Now she needs 100 cash. Either:
(A) She sells 1/11th of her shares in the company in which case her balance sheet looks as follows:
Shares in company 1,000
Cash 100
Or:
She waits till afternoon when the company pays a dividend of 100. Her balance sheet now looks like:
Shares in company 1,000
Cash 100
I think we actually agree so far. And indeed the ex post balance sheet looks identical between A and B which I think is your argument. It looks very much like both scenarios have reflected a reduction in the investor's interest in either property or widget making to fund 100 cash.
But on a look through the two situations are quite different. The look through balance sheets are as follows:
A)
Value of property/widget machine 909
Cash in company 91
Cash in bank 100
B)
Value of property/widget machine 1,000
Cash in bank 100
It is clear that in (A) there has been a genuine reduction in "real" assets whilst in (B) this is not the case.
You will tell me that in (A) when the company pays the 91 in dividends the investor will buy shares in the company to put her in the same position as (B).
Your assertion then becomes that if there is full reinvestment of dividends then, subject to minor timing differences, withdrawing dividends is the same as selling shares. Actually what you are saying is that withdrawing dividends is the negation of reinvesting and I will agree that the negation of reinvesting is economically the same as selling.
But leaving aside the angels dancing on pins debate I stand by the assertion that to the extent that withdrawals are funded from dividends one is not exposed to the whims of how the market is valuing the widget maker or property and is not exposed to sequence risk.
 
Your investment horizon is still not long enough to recover from a bad sequence of returns.

I'm still curious as to why you won't answer if your ex ante strategy could have dealt with the opposite set of equity performance than has occured since 2010.
I'll be more than happy to prove that it is. I presume you'll accept my a priori assumption of a 4% ERP?

Also, tell me which historic 30 years you'd like me to simulate as the worst possible experience.

I don't presume, by the way, that you're expecting me to run time backwards since 2010?!
 
@NoRegretsCoyote
I've tried to put some numbers on our discussion. The example chosen is simple, but hopefully sufficient for illustration purposes.
The investor has €1,000,000 and has decided to withdraw €45,000 level each year.
They have a choice of two investments:
(a) 100% in equities, which return -30% in the first year, then 6% a year from there on.
(b) 50% in equities, with the same returns as (a), the other 50% in bonds, which return a level 2% a year (i.e. an ERP of 4% after year 1).
Each year, the withdrawal of 45k is taken from equities or bonds in proportion to their value at the time.

After 30 years, the residual fund value under (a) is 235k; under (b), the residual fund value is 150k.
 
Failing to reinvest dividends is precisely the same thing economically as selling shares that produced those dividends.
I will agree that the negation of reinvesting is economically the same as selling.
Thank you, that was always my point.
I stand by the assertion that to the extent that withdrawals are funded from dividends one is not exposed to the whims of how the market is valuing the widget maker or property and is not exposed to sequence risk.
I thought we just agreed that failing to reinvest dividends (at whatever share price the market determines) is economically the same as selling those shares? It's just another way of spending down a portfolio, which is where sequence risk arises.
 
They have a choice of two investments:
(a) 100% in equities, which return -30% in the first year, then 6% a year from there on.
(b) 50% in equities, with the same returns as (a), the other 50% in bonds, which return a level 2% a year (i.e. an ERP of 4% after year 1).

They are very interesting figures.

If the fall is 30% and the return is 6% after that, then the 100% equity allocation is better.

The problem would be if there was a sustained fall of 30% over 10 years. Then I presume that investing in bonds would have been better.

It seems clear to me that under most circumstances, 100% equity allocation will be better.

But there must be circumstances where the person would have been better investing in bonds rather than equities.

But the conditions in the world are mad today. We could have a huge crash in equities or bonds or both. I am sure that equities will recover in time. But will the drawdown deplete the fund so much that it won't have a chance of recovering?

Brendan
 
Each year, the withdrawal of 45k is taken from equities or bonds in proportion to their value at the time.
Why wouldn't you withdraw €45kpa from the bond portfolio until your equity portfolio had recovered to its original value? Or rebalanced back to the original 50/50 allocation at the end of the first year?
 
I thought we just agreed that failing to reinvest dividends (at whatever share price the market determines) is economically the same as selling those shares? It's just another way of spending down a portfolio, which is where sequence risk arises.
That negation to reinvest is equivalent reinvesting followed by selling is a logical truism. This does not mean at all that selling is the economic equivalent of receiving dividends. So let me go back to an earlier tack which has a relevance beyond our theological debate. I want to start by stating what I think is a logical truism - a Premise followed by a Conclusion based on that premise. The Premise itself is open to debate as to the extent of its applicability but before we go there I want to establish the tautology.
Premise
The actual dividend pay-outs of the company are independent of changes in the market value of its share price.
Conclusion
To the extent that a withdrawal strategy is based on dividends, changes in market value are irrelevant and there is therefore no sequence risk
.

Do you accept the tautology?

I hope so. We can then move on to discuss the appropriateness of the premise. Colm has cited a share with a healthy dividend which seems pretty nailed on for the foreseeable future. I don't think he has any intention of selling those shares in the near future so he would appear not to be concerned by market values or to be facing any sequence risk at least in respect of this share.
 
But dividend pay-outs are not disconnected from a company's share price!
Agreed, but to the extent that they are disconnected (as in Colm's high dividend example) and are more tied to economic fundamentals, they are not subject to sequence risk.
Share sales are completely related to market values and so are totally exposed to sequence risk. It is wrong to regard dividends as identical to share sales in respect of sequence risk.
 
The problem would be if there was a sustained fall of 30% over 10 years. Then I presume that investing in bonds would have been better.
@Brendan Burgess I would think so as, on the assumption of an equal drop every year, it would imply equity underperformance relative to expectations of 9% every single year for the first ten years. In similar vein, I'm also sure that, if I assumed that equities dropped 100% in year 5, the client would be better advised to put their money in bonds :)

What surprises me about this thread is how many posters, some of whom are probably financial advisers, go out of their way to try to convince people NOT to invest in equities when, as my friend the good financial adviser says, the financial adviser's primary challenge is to convince clients to be LESS loss averse than is in their nature.

Presumably with the same intent of frightening investors off equities, someone (not sure who) wrote on this thread that there were ten-year stretches in the past when bonds outperformed equities. I would guess that, on all or nearly all such occasions, bond yields fell by 3% to 5% over the ten-year period. If bond yields were to fall from their current levels by 3% to 5% over the next ten years, God help us all!

Why wouldn't you withdraw €45kpa from the bond portfolio until your equity portfolio had recovered to its original value? Or rebalanced back to the original 50/50 allocation at the end of the first year?
I could have made lots of assumptions. I'm not sure why I chose the approach assumed in the spreadsheet. In some ways, a more natural approach would have been to assume a 50:50 split of withdrawals each year between bonds and equities. I tried that first, but found that the bond portfolio had gone negative by the end. It is doubtful if a real life investor would follow the withdrawal pattern you suggest. Do you really think they would want to run down their bond portfolio in favour of boosting their equity portfolio as they got older? Not even an ageing Colm Fagan would try that!
 
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