Exactly. And that comes off the share price.Because it has less cash
There are accumulating funds and distributing funds (US mutual funds, for example, are required to distribute all income and realised capital gains).Funds don't pay dividends either
You are really making me tear my hair out at this stage, and it is thin enough. I make straightforward examples and you cite exceptions to the rule such as dividend paying mutuals, or shares which are in effect funds, which are totally irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. I will shout it one more time.Exactly. And that comes off the share price.
There are accumulating funds and distributing funds (US mutual funds, for example, are required to distribute all income and realised capital gains).
Guess what? The NAV per share of a distributing fund falls by the amount of the declared dividend as soon as the fund goes ex-dividend.
Again, there is nothing magical about dividends. Pocketing a dividend from a distributing fund is the same thing as selling shares to the value of the dividend in an accumulating version of the same fund. The investor ends up in precisely the same financial position in either case.
Surely you can see that?
Sadly, those of us in drawdown cannot plan on the basis of life expectancy. We must plan on the assumption that we'll stay around for quite a while longer than the life expectancy for our age. That's a common mistake by financial advisers.But for you: life expectancy of a 61-year-old male is about 22,
Nobody said it was. But receiving rent on a property is not analogous to receiving a dividend on a share.In more subdued tones "receiving a rent is not economically the same as selling a piece of the property".
@Sarenco. I think you're getting confused by cum-div and ex-div status for shares. Of course the share price falls when the dividend is paid. Get back to @Duke of Marmalade 's example of someone with a rental property, or my example cited above of a company paying a dividend of 7% a year like clockwork. Yes, of course the share price falls by half of 7% every time the share goes xd. So what? I just hang around for the next half-year's dividend.Take your property holding company example. The company receives rent on its property. It now has a choice, it can retain the cash or it can distribute the cash to its shareholders.
If it distributes the cash to its shareholders, the value of their shares will fall by an amount corresponding to the dividend payment. Alternatively, if it retains the cash on its balance sheet, this cash amount will continue to be reflected in the value of its shares.
But that's the whole point!Yes, of course the share price falls by half of 7% every time the share goes xd.
Against that background, it is depressing to find advisers on this forum doing everything they can to frighten people off investing in equities.We all worry about our money, and get upset if we make a loss on an investment. For a financial adviser, there is the additional trauma that the client could blame you for the loss even though your advice to invest in something could be absolutely kosher in probability terms. The problem for the financial adviser is that they are on a hiding to nothing. The client is likely to apportion at least part of the blame to the adviser if things go wrong, but to take the credit themselves if things go right. This makes the adviser even more loss-averse than the client, because of the asymmetrical payoffs. Rather than it being the reverse (as it should be in a rational world), the client has often to overcome the adviser's loss aversion. There are some notable exceptions.
Later, the same poster refers to prices being distributed lognormally, meaning that their logarithms are distributed normally. Translated into English, this means that the probability of a gain of 10% (over a very short period) is exactly the same as a loss of 9.09%. So why did @Marc choose to assume a loss of 10%? Was the purpose to frighten clients off investing in a volatile asset? That is exactly the opposite of what my financial adviser friend says is the challenge with his clients.Imagine an investor that earns 10% on her portfolio in one year, and then loses 10% the next. The common mistake is to think that the investor would now be back to where she started. After all, the average of the two annual returns of +10% and-10% is simply 0%.
In actual fact, our investor would have lost 1% over the two years!
That’s an annual loss of about 0.5%
And the effect would have been even worse for more extreme movements. If the investor had instead gained 15% and then lost 15%, the net loss over the two years would have been 2.25%. 20% up and 20% down and the loss would have ballooned to 4% over two years.
If anything, one could interpret the latter part of this post as saying that it should be called a volatility bonus rather than a volatility drag, because the expected return under @Marc's favoured lognormal distribution is e^(µ +0.5*σ^2). Thus, for any given µ, the higher the volatility (σ), the higher the expected return. @Marc should therefore be looking for investments with high σ for his clients!VOLATILITY DRAG
This unfortunate effect is due to the fact that compound annual returns are always below average annual returns.
Okay so add 50% to your life expectancy at 61.Sadly, those of us in drawdown cannot plan on the basis of life expectancy. We must plan on the assumption that we'll stay around for quite a while longer than the life expectancy for our age.
I think this gives me something on which to hang my refutation of your argument. Take a simplified example with distorted relativities. Let the company be either a property company or a widget making company.If the company distributes the cash, then the shareholder will receive the cash and his shares will have a correspondingly lower value. However, if the company retains the cash, the shareholder will have to sell shares (the value of which still reflects the retained cash) to generate the cash.
Either way, the shareholder ends up in exactly the same financial position - he either has the same number of shares with a lower value (because the cash has been distributed by the company) or less shares with a higher value (because the cash has been retained by the company).
I'll be more than happy to prove that it is. I presume you'll accept my a priori assumption of a 4% ERP?Your investment horizon is still not long enough to recover from a bad sequence of returns.
I'm still curious as to why you won't answer if your ex ante strategy could have dealt with the opposite set of equity performance than has occured since 2010.
Failing to reinvest dividends is precisely the same thing economically as selling shares that produced those dividends.
Thank you, that was always my point.I will agree that the negation of reinvesting is economically the same as selling.
I thought we just agreed that failing to reinvest dividends (at whatever share price the market determines) is economically the same as selling those shares? It's just another way of spending down a portfolio, which is where sequence risk arises.I stand by the assertion that to the extent that withdrawals are funded from dividends one is not exposed to the whims of how the market is valuing the widget maker or property and is not exposed to sequence risk.
I trust that my reply to @NoRegretsCoyote (#92 above) has addressed the sequence risk to your satisfaction?It's just another way of spending down a portfolio, which is where sequence risk arises.
They have a choice of two investments:
(a) 100% in equities, which return -30% in the first year, then 6% a year from there on.
(b) 50% in equities, with the same returns as (a), the other 50% in bonds, which return a level 2% a year (i.e. an ERP of 4% after year 1).
Why wouldn't you withdraw €45kpa from the bond portfolio until your equity portfolio had recovered to its original value? Or rebalanced back to the original 50/50 allocation at the end of the first year?Each year, the withdrawal of 45k is taken from equities or bonds in proportion to their value at the time.
That negation to reinvest is equivalent reinvesting followed by selling is a logical truism. This does not mean at all that selling is the economic equivalent of receiving dividends. So let me go back to an earlier tack which has a relevance beyond our theological debate. I want to start by stating what I think is a logical truism - a Premise followed by a Conclusion based on that premise. The Premise itself is open to debate as to the extent of its applicability but before we go there I want to establish the tautology.I thought we just agreed that failing to reinvest dividends (at whatever share price the market determines) is economically the same as selling those shares? It's just another way of spending down a portfolio, which is where sequence risk arises.
But dividend pay-outs are not disconnected from a company's share price!The actual dividend pay-outs of the company are independent of changes in the market value of its share price.
Agreed, but to the extent that they are disconnected (as in Colm's high dividend example) and are more tied to economic fundamentals, they are not subject to sequence risk.But dividend pay-outs are not disconnected from a company's share price!
@Brendan Burgess I would think so as, on the assumption of an equal drop every year, it would imply equity underperformance relative to expectations of 9% every single year for the first ten years. In similar vein, I'm also sure that, if I assumed that equities dropped 100% in year 5, the client would be better advised to put their money in bondsThe problem would be if there was a sustained fall of 30% over 10 years. Then I presume that investing in bonds would have been better.
I could have made lots of assumptions. I'm not sure why I chose the approach assumed in the spreadsheet. In some ways, a more natural approach would have been to assume a 50:50 split of withdrawals each year between bonds and equities. I tried that first, but found that the bond portfolio had gone negative by the end. It is doubtful if a real life investor would follow the withdrawal pattern you suggest. Do you really think they would want to run down their bond portfolio in favour of boosting their equity portfolio as they got older? Not even an ageing Colm Fagan would try that!Why wouldn't you withdraw €45kpa from the bond portfolio until your equity portfolio had recovered to its original value? Or rebalanced back to the original 50/50 allocation at the end of the first year?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?