Russian Foreign Policy

I would prefer an EU military pact, in the absence of that, then we need to seriously think about NATO membership.

NATO isn't perfect, well, one could take a pure self interest on it and say all the more reason to make sure you are in the biggest gang.

Unless you think we are 'too pure' for NATO? Really? Better than who exactly? Every other proper country in the EU?
Better than Canada? Better than Denmark? Better than the Netherlands? Seriously?
Too holier than thou more like it.

What is this perfect country which does not rely on NATO members to ultimately defend it without getting their hands dirty??? Please name them. You could have said Sweden but now they are seriously looking at NATO membership. Switzerland's dirty banking secrets invalidate it as a candidate.
What is this other Utopia?

It's Skibbereen Eagle territory.

It really isn't beyond Russia or some other actor to hit us as the weak link when the EU takes a stand. We've seen Russia doesn't give the slightest damn for morality or previous treaties or established norms of political conduct. On the global stage even the USSR had some respect for that as it tried to appeal to non aligned states even if it treated its own citizens as serfs.

We have negligible defence capacity. If we want ourselves and the EU to be able to play a role on the world stage opposing evil regimes like Russia, then we need to beef up our defence capabilities - and going it alone would be a lot more expensive.
 
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odyssey06 said:
I would prefer an EU military pact, in the absence of that, then we need to seriously think about NATO membership.

NATO isn't perfect, well, one could take a pure self interest on it and say all the more reason to make sure you are in the biggest gang.
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There is PESCO of which we are a member https://www.pesco.europa.eu/, but it's more a co-operation project than a coordinated defence organization. But, as SE and FI, also PESCO members, are looking towards NATO, I think this indicates the direction EU territorial defence will take.
 
Baby boomer said:
A neutral country has been invaded without just cause, civilians are being deliberately slaughtered, towns and cities are being levelled, women are being raped and you think there's no moral high ground. Right, fair enough so. As a matter of interest, what exactly would it take to establish a moral high ground in your eyes?
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For 4 NATO members not to have bombed Iraq on a very similar justification as Russia has invaded Ukraine. Flimsy (or in Iraq's case non existent) notions of security concerns, accusations of Nazi or Islamist politics. But hey you knew that, you just wanted a cheap pop.

Baby boomer said:
I'm sure Ukraine thought that too. Problem is it's not up to Ireland. Military entanglements might not stay away from us.
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Our geographical location is very favourable in this regard.

Baby boomer said:
As Finland has amply demonstrated, a country of our size and wealth can build a defence capability against any potential aggressor. In their case, Russia; in our case, take your pick from a range of potential aggressors.
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I would like to know who these potential aggressors might be before Irish taxpayers hand over €7bn a year to the arms industry.

Baby boomer said:
How would that world-leading cyber defence fair against an aggressor who used submarines to cut every fibre optic cable that comes into this island?
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I am not proposing military defence of the US/Europe network that passes our shores. Let those who installed it do that. (I used to work briefly for Global Crossing, I sometimes feel like Forrest Gump)

Baby boomer said:
Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel and become a world leader in cyber defence, might it not be better to cooperate with a range of countries and together build the world's leading cyber defence system. Now, if only there was an alliance of like minded democracies, led and chiefly funded by the world's richest country, which already has the best resourced IT capability, that we could join.......
Oh, wait!
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I would like to see Ireland having an independent capacity in this regard, and I would be very uncomfortable getting involved with the US or UK security establishment.
 
odyssey06 said:
I would prefer an EU military pact, in the absence of that, then we need to seriously think about NATO membership.

NATO isn't perfect, well, one could take a pure self interest on it and say all the more reason to make sure you are in the biggest gang.

Unless you think we are 'too pure' for NATO? Really? Better than who exactly? Every other proper country in the EU?
Better than Canada? Better than Denmark? Better than the Netherlands? Seriously?
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Better than he Netherlands ? You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

The Netherlands campaign (with some British help) to reoccupy Indonesia after WW2 was appalling. They gathered villages together and burned the people en masse.

According to a Dutch government inquiry in 2022, the Dutch had resorted to systematic extreme violence, including torture and murder and this conduct had been sanctioned at the highest levels of government.

The army was “frequently and structurally” guilty of “extrajudicial executions, ill-treatment and torture, detention under inhumane conditions, arson of houses and villages, and often arbitrary mass arrests and internments”, the report’s researchers said. Rape was not normally condoned but it was lightly punished, if at all.

[broken link removed]

The naivety of some Irish people about our 'civilised' European neighbours is unreasonable.
 
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cremeegg said:
Better than he Netherlands ? You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

The Netherlands campaign (with some British help) to reoccupy Indonesia after WW2 was appalling. They gathered villages together and burned the people en masse.

According to a Dutch government inquiry in 2022, the Dutch had resorted to systematic extreme violence, including torture and murder and this conduct had been sanctioned at the highest levels of government.

The army was “frequently and structurally” guilty of “extrajudicial executions, ill-treatment and torture, detention under inhumane conditions, arson of houses and villages, and often arbitrary mass arrests and internments”, the report’s researchers said. Rape was not normally condoned but it was lightly punished, if at all.

[broken link removed]

The naivety of some Irish people about our 'civilised' European neighbours is unreasonable.
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Gosh. What are we doing in a deep reaching formal political association with such a rogue state?
 
cremeegg said:
Better than he Netherlands ? You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

The Netherlands campaign (with some British help) to reoccupy Indonesia after WW2 was appalling. They gathered villages together and burned the people en masse.

According to a Dutch government inquiry in 2022, the Dutch had resorted to systematic extreme violence, including torture and murder and this conduct had been sanctioned at the highest levels of government.

The army was “frequently and structurally” guilty of “extrajudicial executions, ill-treatment and torture, detention under inhumane conditions, arson of houses and villages, and often arbitrary mass arrests and internments”, the report’s researchers said. Rape was not normally condoned but it was lightly punished, if at all.

[broken link removed]

The naivety of some Irish people about our 'civilised' European neighbours is unreasonable.
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Right, so about 75 years ago, Netherlands did some bad stuff. They've now fessed up and acknowledged their misdeeds. That does not in any way justify, lessen or contextualise what Russia is doing today. This very day, for example, they've deliberately shelled and bombed another hospital. Does Netherlands do that today? Does the USA? Does NATO?

Put simply, what Russia is doing is wrong. It's unjustified. It's a war crime. It's savage and inhumane. It is simply beyond me why you feel the need to engage in constant historical whataboutery and false equivalence whenever Russia is criticised.
 
Baby boomer said:
Right, so about 75 years ago, Netherlands did some bad stuff. They've now fessed up and acknowledged their misdeeds. That does not in any way justify, lessen or contextualise what Russia is doing today. This very day, for example, they've deliberately shelled and bombed another hospital. Does Netherlands do that today? Does the USA? Does NATO?

Put simply, what Russia is doing is wrong. It's unjustified. It's a war crime. It's savage and inhumane. It is simply beyond me why you feel the need to engage in constant historical whataboutery and false equivalence whenever Russia is criticised.
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Have you read any of my comments ?

What Russia is doing is unjustified and a war crime. Yes.

What should Ireland do about that ? Offer asylum to Ukrainians. Yes

Condemn Russias war? Yes.

Join NATO ? No.
 
cremeegg said:
The naivety of some Irish people about our 'civilised' European neighbours is unreasonable.
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What about the Irish people who went around the world killing the natives for King and Country?
It's very convenient to ignore our active and majority supported participation in the British Army (our army for hundreds of years) but we've no right to take the high moral ground on anything.
In the here and now our neighbour is fighting a totalitarian dictatorship in a war that has far reaching and direct consequences for us any every other free country in the world and we, along with a small number of other cowardly countries, are refusing to give them the help they are begging for. I am ashamed of us.
 
This month is the 30th anniversary of the beginning of the siege of Sarajevo. 14,000 people were killed by the Bosnian Serb Army, including 5,500 civilians.

We did nothing then either.


During the Second World War we refused to allow Jewish orphans fleeing the Nazis into the country.
In fact in 1943 in his maiden speech to the Dail Oliver Flannigan, newly elected FG TD and later Minister, said that; “There is one thing that Germany did and that was to rout the Jews out of their country,” he declared, saying that Ireland should follow suit. “They crucified our saviour 1,900 years ago and they are crucifying us every day of the week.”
When Éamon de Valera announced plans to take in 500 refugee children from France Flannigan again objected because of their religion, causing Dev to deny that they were in fact Jewish. Flannigan doubled his vote in the next election and was a popular politician throughout his career despite, or possibly because of, his antisemitism. That antisemitism is alive and well in Ireland still.

Yes, we covered ourselves in glory there.


We've a long and seemingly proud history of doing nothing in the face of evil or, when we do act, doing the wrong thing.
If there's a high moral ground we certainly aren't on it.
 
Purple said:
It's very convenient to ignore our active and majority supported participation in the British Army (our army for hundreds of years) but we've no right to take the high moral ground on anything.
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"majority supported participation"...even for you Purple, that's a serious stretch
 
Delboy said:
"majority supported participation"...even for you Purple, that's a serious stretch
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Before the emergence of modern Irish Nationalism in the 1830's, and O'Connell in particular, most people accepted the reality as it was that we were part of the UK and their Monarch was our Head of State. The Irish were massively over represented in the British Army, to the extent that in the 19th Century they made up almost 40% of its members. That was certainly more to do with poverty than patriotism ( as was the case almost everywhere at the time) but there were plenty of poor in England, Scotland and Wales as well.
 
Purple said:
Before the emergence of modern Irish Nationalism in the 1830's, and O'Connell in particular, most people accepted the reality as it was that we were part of the UK and their Monarch was our Head of State. The Irish were massively over represented in the British Army, to the extent that in the 19th Century they made up almost 40% of its members. That was certainly more to do with poverty than patriotism ( as was the case almost everywhere at the time) but there were plenty of poor in England, Scotland and Wales as well.
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We'll agree to disagree on your interpretations of Ireland's past acceptance of the British army, their Monarchy and our place in the UK which I believe to be absolutely ridiculous! This is the Russian thread after all
 
cremeegg said:
Our geographical location is very favourable
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Above is a key point. We are not under any credible threat of invasion. Current events should not bounce us into NATO membership or into an EU Army. Being militarily non-aligned but not politically neutral makes a lot of sense for Ireland. We should focus on energy and food security in the first instance, and then building up air and sea defence capabilities (EIRE signs don't quite tick that box).
 
Purple said:
Before the emergence of modern Irish Nationalism in the 1830's, and O'Connell in particular, most people accepted the reality as it was that we were part of the UK and their Monarch was our Head of State. The Irish were massively over represented in the British Army, to the extent that in the 19th Century they made up almost 40% of its members. That was certainly more to do with poverty than patriotism ( as was the case almost everywhere at the time) but there were plenty of poor in England, Scotland and Wales as well.
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You don't have to go back to the 1830's. I have a box at home with one grand-uncles trench art from his time in the trenches and his subsequent War of Independence medals in it. His 2 sisters married English sailors/soldiers and his other brother took part in the aborted 1916 rising in Cork. Anyone who thinks Ireland didn't accept or take part in the British Army and the Monarchy is living in cloud cuckoo land. That grand uncle was far from the only one. the likes of Tom Barry served in the British army

www.irishtimes.com

‘Astonishing’ video footage of smiling ‘famine queen’ Victoria’s Dublin visit found

Film archivists are amazed at the quality of film showing Victoria’s 1900 visit
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
 
michaelm said:
Above is a key point. We are not under any credible threat of invasion. Current events should not bounce us into NATO membership or into an EU Army. Being militarily non-aligned but not politically neutral makes a lot of sense for Ireland. We should focus on energy and food security in the first instance, and then building up air and sea defence capabilities (EIRE signs don't quite tick that box).
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We should also look into establishing a strategic reserve / stock piling of fossilized fuels, similar to what the US does with oil.
 
jman0war said:
We should also look into establishing a strategic reserve / stock piling of fossilized fuels, similar to what the US does with oil.
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Totally agree. Even if we went ahead with renewables, EVs, retrofitting, etc, etc as fast as is possible, we will STILL need at least SOME fossil fuels for at least SOME period of time. Having security of supply is only common sense. However, that's a commodity in short supply in the Green party, now unfortunately part of our Government. They have opposed the building of an LPG import terminal - which would give us an alternative source of supply - and they have opposed (and banned) further oil and gas exploration in Irish waters. The atmosphere is blissfully indifferent as to whether the gas or oil we burn comes from Siberian,
Middle Eastern, US or Irish territory. But Ryan and company would prefer to fund Russian and Gulf dictatorships rather than Irish jobs. A high price to pay for ideological purity! And then there's their historic opposition to nuclear which many European green parties have sensibly embraced. More ideological purity even as we import nuclear generated electricity via interconnectors.

It's a bit like the old Irish attitude to abortion - not wanting that sort of thing here but happy to turn a blind eye as we let other countries solve our problems. But, hey, our purity is intact.

And the same purity fetish is evident in our neutrality obsession. We'll send money and food to the Ukrainian Army but not weapons! What a perverted sense of morality!
 
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