Russian Foreign Policy

Russian lies about dead bodies in Bucha debunked...

When images emerged over the weekend of the bodies of dead civilians lying on the streets of Bucha — some with their hands bound, some with gunshot wounds to the head — Russia’s Ministry of Defense denied responsibility.
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Satellite images provided to The Times by Maxar Technologies show that at least 11 of those had been on the street since March 11, when Russia, by its own account, occupied the town.

Live Updates: U.N. Security Council to Meet as Evidence of War Crimes Mounts

China and Russia are unlikely to support any measures that France, the U.S. and Britain propose. European leaders sought to impose more sanctions, but were divided on whether to ban Russian natural gas.
www.nytimes.com
 
This has gone way beyond deniability. Satellite images prove that.

God knows what will be discovered in Mariupol.

You know, I cannot think of a word low enough to describe a man who would stand over these atrocities or an even lower one to describe his vile and cowardly enablers.
 
Purple said:
I've very few original thoughts so I probably lifted it from somewhere. I also have an exceptionally bad memory so I can't remember from where.
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It's Tommy Lee Jones from the film Men In Black. But kudos for retaining it.

Men in Black - Bench scene

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the univ...
youtu.be
 
Maybe the Russians think that we will all fall for their lies & propaganda as they are so used to peddling the same at home. But there is just too much footage in these modern times. The Russians just left the dead cyclist below on the streets for weeks - no value on human life whatsoever. Shame on Russia.

Ukraine Live Updates: Europe Considers Cutting Off Russian Coal as Moscow Denies War Crimes

The measures will require unanimous approval and are expected to go to a vote on Wednesday. The escalation in economic pressure came after President Volodymyr Zelensky delivered a fiery speech to the U.N. Security Council.
www.nytimes.com

New video has emerged that adds to mounting evidence of atrocities carried out while Russia’s military occupied the suburban town of Bucha, northwest of Kyiv.

The video shows a cyclist moving along a street in Bucha, dismounting and walking a bicycle around the corner onto a street occupied by Russian soldiers. As soon as the cyclist rounds the turn, a Russian armored vehicle fires several high-caliber rounds along the thoroughfare. A second armored vehicle fires two rounds in the direction of the cyclist. A plume of dust and smoke rises from the scene.

The video is aerial footage recorded by Ukraine’s military in late February, when Russian forces still held the town. It has been independently verified by The New York Times.

Weeks later, after Russia withdrew from Bucha, a body in civilian clothes was filmed beside a bicycle in this precise location in a second video verified by The Times. The body, with one leg mangled, lies behind a concrete utility pillar that has collapsed from an apparent strike. The damage to the pillar is consistent with high-caliber ammunition. The person’s clothing — a dark blue top and lighter pants — matches the cyclist’s attire.
 
Trouble is, where do you draw a line on this. ?

For example, Obama's USA carried out over 1800 drone strikes and depending on what report you read, between 100 and 900 civilians were killed. Trump upped the ante and had carried out over 2000 drone strikes in his first 2 years, Biden's airforce has bombed a wedding. I guess the only positive thing to say there is that at least the US for the most parts owns up.

Bashir has used poison gas, Yemen is being systematically destroyed in a war funded by a country that, amongst other things, part owns Disney. Ethiopia is buying weapons from Turkey to use in the Tigray civil war, the list goes on and on and on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not underplaying Ukraine and it is more relevant to us since as Europeans, it is on our doorstep. However sadly, it is far from unique.
 
Well, you never draw the line on condemning atrocities wherever they occur, or you never take the endurance of democracy for granted.

I think the reason why Ukraine is more meaningful to us, apart from the fact that it is European, is that democracy is under attack.

Generally, the Middle East is not democratic and not united. There are a few “democratic” states but not what we would recognize as democracy. And there is constant inherited conflict. Syria is typical of the confusing array of actors and complex interrelated and clashing struggles.

Who is the arbiter of peace among undemocratic States?

The US is condemned if it becomes involved in their conflicts and condemned if it doesn’t.

The EU had its origin in States coming together to trade in peace and to try to avert the insanity of constant warfare in Europe.

Therefore, Ukraine is more clear-cut. It is a democratic European State that suffered an unprovoked attack by a totalitarian regime, which thinks it has no right to exist.

Ireland as a democratic European country, completely unable to defend itself against a similar attack, saw laid bare the frailty of democracy and the need to stand together with other democracies.

We don’t and probably never will have military capabilities to speak of but we are not without influence.
 
Sophrosyne said:
Well, you never draw the line on condemning atrocities wherever they occur,
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The Shinners are in aa bit of a bind here though aren't they. I mean they can hardly condemn the Russians for murdering children since they were gung-ho at it for 30 years.
 
Peanuts20 said:
Trouble is, where do you draw a line on this. ?
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This is a really important question. Fortunately, the answer is relatively clear...
Peanuts20 said:
For example, Obama's USA carried out over 1800 drone strikes and depending on what report you read, between 100 and 900 civilians were killed.
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It's obvious from those ratios that the primary purpose of those drone strikes was NOT to inflict civilian casualties. If it was the civilian death toll would be much higher. A belligerent army may target military targets even though civilian casualties (so-called collateral damage) will almost certainly be inflicted too. There has to be an element of proportionality, so you can't blow up an entire apartment block because one soldier took shelter there. Equally, military combatants can't take shelter or locate military equipment in civilian areas to try and set up a human shield scenario.



Peanuts20 said:
Trump upped the ante and had carried out over 2000 drone strikes in his first 2 years, Biden's airforce has bombed a wedding. I guess the only positive thing to say there is that at least the US for the most parts owns up.
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By and large, they do. But more importantly, they don't (with very few exceptions) deliberately target civilian targets. There will be the odd mistake in 2000 drone strikes - as long as there's a reasonable effort to avoid civilian casualties, that's permissible. That's a world away from the deliberate targeting of civilians that Russia has done in Ukraine (and in Syria and Chechnya too.)

It isn't of course unique. It is, though, hugely different from anything that the US, UK, NATO or Western nations in general have engaged in recently. It is quite disingenuous to draw such parallels as PBP did in the Dáil today.
 
Purple said:
The Shinners are in aa bit of a bind here though aren't they. I mean they can hardly condemn the Russians for murdering children since they were gung-ho at it for 30 years.
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That's exactly what Mary Lou did, quite shamelessly, in the Dáil this morning! She condemned Russia for murdering civilians, for shooting people after tying their hands behind their backs and for its violence towards women and children. Perhaps she could look closer to home if she wants to condemn that sort of thing.
 
At least the Russians had the decency to leave the bodies in the street rather than bury them in a bog or sand dune.
 
Russian rocket strike on Kramatorsk railway station in east Ukraine killed at least 39 people and wounded 87 others. The station was being used for civilian evacuations

A Russian strike on a crowded train station in eastern Ukraine on Friday morning left at least 39 people dead and nearly 90 wounded, Ukrainian officials said, in what appeared to be a major attack on a main point of evacuation for the many trying to flee before an expected stepped-up offensive.

Photos provided by Ukrainian officials showed people splayed on the ground, surrounded by scattered luggage and debris. In a video from the scene, a woman screams, “There are so many corpses, there are children, there are just children!”

Live Updates: At Least 39 Killed in Strike on Train Station, Ukraine Says, as Thousands Flee From East

The station in the eastern city of Kramatorsk had been a main point of evacuation as the region braced for a scaling up of Russia’s offensive. The European Union formally approved a new set of sanctions against Russia, including a ban on coal imports.
www.nytimes.com
 
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