RIC Commemoration

[cremeegg]

the fact that the Nation State as we know it and fought for in 1916 and during the Civil War didn't exist, even as a concept, when Strongbow rocked up in Bannow Bay in 1169. The reality of history didn't suit us and didn't allow us to assert our identity, a constructed identity based on what those in power thought it would have been had we been free all of that time.

Nation states as we know them today didn't exist in the 12th century obviously.

Ireland did however have a recognised High King at that time, Ruaidrí mac Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair ( Ruairí Ó Conchúir in modern Irish, or Rory O Connor in English). The nature of the High Kingship was not like the traditional feudal idea of a King, the regional kings held most real power in their areas, and indeed local kings were often quite independent. Just like the role of the US President is nothing like the role of the French President today. That said O Connor was active on a national level in areas such as church reform and indeed developing infrastructure.

Ireland was an integrated cultural, social and legal entity. The written Irish language was standard throughout the country as was the Brehon legal system. This standardised spoken language was most unusual at the time. German, French, Italian were mostly spoken languages with little standardisation in their written forms. Latin was of course much more standardised but was not the spoken language.

The Brehon legal system was unique in that it was national law code administered by judges rather than the codification local customs with some remnants of the Justinian canon all enforced by the local political power.

 

[Purple]

I know that you hold very different opinions to me on these matters, the Troubles etc. and I would respect your opinions without accepting them. Those of us old enough to have lived through (although in my own case at a safe distance I am glad to say) them have our own ideas built over decades and nothing said on here is likely to shift that.

However I would like to address the points you have made above



Ireland was not culturally dominated by England for 800 years. Englands cultural influence on Ireland was negligible before 1600. The Norman Lords who ruled approx half the country were Irish speakers, 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' It began to make some inroads after that, but had little sway over the majority of the population until the early 1800s.

O Connell's efforts to modernise the country supported the introduction of the English language and the introduction of the National Schools in the 1830s spread education through English. The Famine decimated those Irish speaking parts of the country particularly.

The idea that a version of Irishness was constructed is touted by those who are unsympathetic. It is a distortion built on a misunderstanding. It began in the late 1800s not after the foundation of the state. It was a work of rescue, not construction. Douglas Hyde collected the poetry of Raftery, because it was still very much alive more than half a century after his death. The culture that produced his work and many others like him was brought into the modern world, particularly the world of print for the first time. It was not 'constructed'.

There was certainly an Irish culture but it was interwoven with British and more particularly English culture. We made up a version which excluded the English part, and the Protestant part. We made Protestants strangers in their own country.

 

[Purple]

Nation states as we know them today didn't exist in the 12th century obviously.

Ireland did however have a recognised High King at that time, Ruaidrí mac Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair ( Ruairí Ó Conchúir in modern Irish, or Rory O Connor in English). The nature of the High Kingship was not like the traditional feudal idea of a King, the regional kings held most real power in their areas, and indeed local kings were often quite independent. Just like the role of the US President is nothing like the role of the French President today. That said O Connor was active on a national level in areas such as church reform and indeed developing infrastructure.

Ireland was an integrated cultural, social and legal entity. The written Irish language was standard throughout the country as was the Brehon legal system. This standardised spoken language was most unusual at the time. German, French, Italian were mostly spoken languages with little standardisation in their written forms. Latin was of course much more standardised but was not the spoken language.

The Brehon legal system was unique in that it was national law code administered by judges rather than the codification local customs with some remnants of the Justinian canon all enforced by the local political power.

I agree with you. These are points I have made to British and American people many times. I do think you are overstating the position/power of the High Kings though. They were more frequently powerless than powerful.