RIC Commemoration

[cremeegg]

Oh dear !

Should the state commemorate the RIC ?

The RIC were the British police in Ireland, before and during the war of independence they served the British Empire.

I have no doubt many RIC men behaved honourably and in accordance with their ideals. Those ideals were opposed to the creation of an Irish state. For the state to commemorate them would be a further step toward the reconciliation of those people today whose ideals support Britain's presence in Ireland and these who support the Irish state.

This commemoration should never have been a one party idea, if the Irish people think it appropriate to commemorate the RIC then that should only happen in the context of broad support for the idea.

Charlie Flanagan seems to have hatched the plan himself, if he had any confidence in his idea he could have asked FF and others to join him in supporting the plan before he issued invitations. Whether it was arrogance or a desire to bump others into a position where they couldn't demur he badly miscalculated.

On balance I am opposed to a state commemoration of the RIC, in particular I am opposed to the recent idea that the Gardaí are some how a successor force to the RIC, they are not. I would have absolutely no objection to any private commemoration, those who admire the RICs ideals are perfectly entitled to commemorate them. Fine Gael are perfectly entitled to join them.

Although FG are in Government they are not justified in a state commemoration off their own bat. Ireland is not an elective dictatorship.

When Cathal Crowe the FF mayor of Clare, in a very measured way, declined to attend and started a push back, Charlie Flanagan then used his expert advisory group as cover for the event, to pretend that it was not just a FG plan. Diarmuid Ferriter has called him out on that.

So lacking the courage of his convictions Charlie has deferred (RTE) or maybe cancelled (The Journal) the event.

What are the people who were looking forward to commemorating the RIC supposed to think now. They have been publicly humiliated. Invited to a party and then told the party is off. We don't want to commemorate them after all.

Charlie has disgraced himself thrice, in arranging a state commemoration on a narrow basis of support (was there any active support, apart from himself and perhaps John Bruton), by using the expert advisory group as cover, by failing to stand by his decision after announcing it and insulting those who were pleased to be invited.

As a final point, who were these invited relatives. As the great-grand son of an RIC sergeant, I certainly wasn't invited, nor to the best of my knowledge was any other of his descendents. I suspect the invited relatives were active political supporters of a certain point of view.

This farce has damaged the state and it efforts to sensitively commemorate the events of 100 years ago, it has embarrassed the government, it has embarrassed the expert advisory group, and I suspect it was done from base motives, to suggest that the political views of the heirs of John Redmond are the views of a majority of Irish people. They are not.

Charlie Flanagan should resign or be forced to resign.

 

[john luc]

He is an idiot. Will the Germans commemerate the Stazi when the time comes. This is an organisation that does not deserve to be commemorated. Just remembered in the history books.

 

[Purple]

When this State was founded we had to invent a uniquely Irish culture as we had been rules by the English (later the British) for so long that our identity was in tatters. The resurrection of the Irish language etc was part of that. At the same time we airbrushed away much of our history and people who did a lot of good in this country (Lady Aberdeen for example) disappeared. In recent years we have revised our outlook and moved closer to the truth.
The RIC was Royal because of their role in putting down the Fenian rebellion but by 1916 most of the rank and file were just policemen doing their job. The first man killed on Easter Sunday 1916 was an unarmed RIC man. Tom Barry's father was in the RIC, as were family of many of the other Rebel leaders but ultimately their were in instrument of British colonial rule in Ireland.
If any part of the British forces who died from 1916 to 1922 deserve a commemoration it is the Sherwood Foresters; kids mown down at Mount Street Bridge who knew nothing and cared less about Ireland, but were sent here in a light ferry from Liverpool without any of their heavy equipment instead of being shipped off to be butchered in the Great War.

While I do not agree with this commemoration I would like to point out that this would just be the amuse-bouche of events if we had a united Ireland, unless it was achieved through an ethnic cleansing of the Unionist population, both North and South. I don't think any reasonable person thinks that's desirable. So, while "One Ireland, Gaelic and free" is desirable for some and a "Protestant Land for a Protestant People" is desirable for others I think we might be better off just leaving things as they are. It's good to remember but this sort of ill thought out, ham fisted nonsense is not the way to do it.

 

[Sunny]

It was a stupid idea but apparently there was an all party meeting where this was discussed and nobody including Sinn Fein raised an objection. But I don't know if a full commemoration was discussed. World Leaders often attend war commemorations for both sides in a conflict and that it is the way it should be. Why they feel to need to commemorate the RIC separately, I have no idea. Of course the Black and Tans were going to come into it. It would be like Germany deciding to hold a ceremony for the SS. And to make it worse, Leo actually makes it sound like it is all our fault for not being mature enough to deal with our history. I have heard my Grandmother talk about her memories of the Black and Tans. His comments were insulting.

 

[Betsy Og]

A balls up from start to finish. Of itself it is no biggie, its early January, nothing else to talk about bar the great and good of RTE. I doubt we'll still be talking about it in February.

While I'm a FG voter I'm happy enough to see Leo put back in his box, the private school/doctor arrogance grates a bit with me (not to mention the mortification of Kylie, 'on trend' socks, Love Actually and other 'trying too hard' stuff like this hand wringing RIC gaffe - & his Mr. Unnecessarily Nasty in his Dail barbs), its a pity Simon Coveney didnt get the job that time. Leo fancies himself as an international statesman (after a wet week as Taoiseach) ..... I'll drive him to the airport.....

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I've a hunch that if I had been around at the time I would have been supporting the forces of law and order, maybe even the B&Ts. Nonetheless I was astounded when I heard of this proposed commemoration, surely the supporters of this in the RoI could be counted on one hand. Then I was truly gobsmacked when I heard it was a FG solo run. As I understand it, FG or their predecessors won the Civil War but surely it was the other side who won the peace. Big tactical mistake for FG to relive the Civil War. This is one FG vote which will be lent to Michael Martin this time.

As a side bar I read Prof Ferriter's piece on the B&Ts in Saturday's IT. He stated that 24% were killed in ambush, which seemed to me very high. almost evoked an element of respect. In a letter to the IT yesterday the source of these figures, DM Leeson, clarified that what he recorded was that 24% of those ambushed were killed. In fact of 1,153 B&Ts only 21 were killed overall.

 

[Purple]

The fact that the RIC did most of the shooting in Croke Park on Bloody Sunday in 1920 is also a factor in why this was a bad idea.

 

[john luc]

As said there were many men who joined this organization just to do a job but this commemoration was to be for the organization itself,madness.

 

[john luc]

I've a hunch that if I had been around at the time I would have been supporting the forces of law and order, maybe even the B&Ts.

I have often pondered that position too had I lived as a young man at this time. My fathers family were republican in that time and my mothers were too but they were more towards the W T Cosgrave and my Fathers family were more towards Eamon De Valera. For me I found that I would have sided with Cosgrave/Collins. I had many a good debate with my Father over this as I was growing up

 

[county]

I was gobsmacked to hear of this first and could not understand how it was being justified as my initial thoughts was a commemoration to the RIC was implicitly endorsing the actions of the B&T's. I am now told that I am immature and I do not have a grasp of Irish History with my thought process, maybe I am and if so we may need to revisit our History curriculum and they way Irish History is thought.

FG has lost my vote with this one. There have been a culmination of poor decisions over the past few months but I was still willing to support them again but this shows how out of touch the high rank within the party are with people.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I have often pondered that position too had I lived as a young man at this time. My fathers family were republican in that time and my mothers were too but they were more towards the W T Cosgrave and my Fathers family were more towards Eamon De Valera. For me I found that I would have sided with Cosgrave/Collins. I had many a good debate with my Father over this as I was growing up

I grew up in West Belfast as the Troubles were peaking. My father would have regarded the rebels of 1916 et al as heroes but he was fiercely opposed to the modern day incarnation in Belfast of SF/IRA, despite believing himself to have been the victim of discrimination. I inherited that abhorrence of SF/IRA but latterly began to question were the original "heroes" any different. But hey, let's not get off topic.

 

[Betsy Og]

Duke - you are dead to me......
John Luc - its not Pro-Treaty or Anti-Treaty that Duke is talking about - I think I'd have been pro-Treaty - he's talking about fighting with the British!! I can see how many a lad was just getting a job before it all kicked off, but I couldn't imagine murdering my fellow couuntrymen for political reasons (1913 on). So if I'd been RIC I think I'd have been an IRA informer or just left (probably the latter).

 

[Betsy Og]

Duke - on the general point I don't accept at all the SF claim that they are SF from early 1900s, and the PIRA is the same IRA. So I don't think the PIRA should have any bearing on your view of the IRA of 1900-1922. My granda was in the old IRA, never a sectarian word out of him, not even a very political man, but this was fairly Black n White (Tan?) stuff. Most people didn't want to fight but what choice had they when their country was being denied it right to self-determination (& in the past allowed starve, and then being brutalised). The original men of 1916 were a bit like an ISIS squad, limited support for that particular action, all blood sacrifice etc etc, but the brits managed to make them martyrs and fanned republican flames. So ridding ourselves of the empire was unquestionably the right thing to do. ......now wash your mouth out...

 

[Sunny]

I have often pondered that position too had I lived as a young man at this time. My fathers family were republican in that time and my mothers were too but they were more towards the W T Cosgrave and my Fathers family were more towards Eamon De Valera. For me I found that I would have sided with Cosgrave/Collins. I had many a good debate with my Father over this as I was growing up

I don't think anything is really that simple. We all have ideological views or think we know how we would act/behave but in reality we don't really know for sure. I wouldn't have any strong republican roots in my family but my Grandmother was from Cork. Her sister was raped and brother was shot in the leg and told to leave Cork by the Black and Tans. The brother went to the US and was never heard of again. She told me stories before she died of how the Black and Tans would come on to the farm and take/destroy all the milk and food. They would ransack the property looking for IRA members (she admits that her family and every neighbouring family gave shelter to members). She was only a child and didn't exactly grow up to be hating the British but there is no doubt the experiences impacted her. If I was a young man at that time, I don't know how I would have reacted.

 

[Purple]

Duke - you are dead to me......
John Luc - its not Pro-Treaty or Anti-Treaty that Duke is talking about - I think I'd have been pro-Treaty - he's talking about fighting with the British!! I can see how many a lad was just getting a job before it all kicked off, but I couldn't imagine murdering my fellow countrymen for political reasons (1913 on). So if I'd been RIC I think I'd have been an IRA informer or just left (probably the latter).

The pro-treaty side were, in effect, fighting with the Brits. They were armed by the British to kill their fellow Irishmen. I don't think it's black and white.

 

[Betsy Og]

The pro-treaty side were, in effect, fighting with the Brits. They were armed by the British to kill their fellow Irishmen. I don't think it's black and white.

At the end of the day even Dev himself dealt with the rump of the anti-treaty movement - so you can't wait until the last soldier in deep cover on a tree is on board with you. The Irish people voted for the treaty, that's good enough for me. (This was the problem with making Gods of the men of 16, they struck a blow, but failed, but yet the country should risk yet more misery to be true to them? Collins said it was the freedom to achieve freedom - Dev was still around to deliver it (that which he railed against).

There were Free State atrocities during the Civil War - e.g. Ballyseedy - but sure the whole thing was an utterly depressing omnishambles, but I know where I'm putting the biggest chunk of the blame (and its not with the Irish people that voted for the treaty....answers on a postcard).

Anyway Purple, to get back to Duke's point, would you have joined the Tans?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

... Most people didn't want to fight but what choice had they when their country was being denied it right to self-determination...

Young Betsy, many Scottish folk share similar views these days, but not a whiff of gelignite. It was the Irish side who decided to up the ante to armed conflict as they sought to take advantage of the British in their hour of deadly peril, rather than wait for the promised Home Rule. This is going off topic

 

[Betsy Og]

Different times now (you'd hope). I'm not convinced of the Kevin Myers analysis that it was all unnecessary. They fairly fought it hard for a crowd who were allegedly going to hand it over on a platter. Anyway, back on topic and your lament for not having been a Tansman.....

p.s. wish I was still young....it's just a name now, as Sickboy said ..... total _______ misnomer

 

[Sunny]

Young Betsy, many Scottish folk share similar views these days, but not a whiff of gelignite. It was the Irish side who decided to up the ante to armed conflict as they sought to take advantage of the British in their hour of deadly peril, rather than wait for the promised Home Rule. This is going off topic

That's a bit of a stretch now isn't it! You can't compare Scotland in 2020 with Ireland in early 1900's.

Anyway, the Scots have their own history. I watched Braveheart! (now we are officially off topic!)

 

[Purple]

At the end of the day even Dev himself dealt with the rump of the anti-treaty movement - so you can't wait until the last soldier in deep cover on a tree is on board with you. The Irish people voted for the treaty, that's good enough for me. (This was the problem with making Gods of the men of 16, they struck a blow, but failed, but yet the country should risk yet more misery to be true to them? Collins said it was the freedom to achieve freedom - Dev was still around to deliver it (that which he railed against).

I think that dreadful movie about Collins put me off him to be honest as the depiction of Dev, of whom I was never a fan, was so pantomime baddie. Collins would certainly be regarded as a terrorist and a criminal today and of the RIC hadn't open fire in Croke Park the murder of the British Agents earlier that day would be seen in a very different historical light. Pierce was, in my view, a total nutter. Dev was a protectionist who destroyed the economy and Collins did the best thing he could for his legacy; was accidentally shot by one of his own men.
All that being said they were, on balance, all great men who died to make me free.
I'm glad they all did what they did and I get to live free in a republic and not in what would be in impoverished region of the UK.

There were Free State atrocities during the Civil War - e.g. Ballyseedy - but sure the whole thing was an utterly depressing omnishambles, but I know where I'm putting the biggest chunk of the blame (and its not with the Irish people that voted for the treaty....answers on a postcard).

The Irish people voted for the Treaty after the fact. Collins went against the explicit orders of his President and caused a civil war. I've great sympathy for him. What else could he do? I also have great sympathy for Dev, what else could he have done?

Anyway Purple, to get back to Duke's point, would you have joined the Tans?

No. I don't like the idea of having to shoot people and like the idea of being shot even less.
The whole family on my Mother's side were in the IRA so I wouldn't have joined even if I liked the idea of keeping my own people down.