RIC Commemoration

Firefly said:
Any idea how our PS pay compares to the OECD average?
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There is a massive gap between public sector and private sector pay in Ireland. In other OECD countries in is far smaller to nonexistent. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that relative to PPP our PS employees are better paid. The cost of living in Northern Ireland is lower, partially due to the "please don't kill each other" bribe they get from the British, so it is reasonable the expect their PS wages to be lower.
 
Purple said:
Yes, and in the December 1919 election Sinn Fein (which became Fianna Fail) won an overwhelming mandate on a platform of Independence.
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Yes, but those elections were to the British parliament, not some unestablished Dáil. The military junta, that we all love and admire, just imposed its will.
 
WolfeTone said:
Yes, but those elections were to the British parliament, not some unestablished Dáil. The military junta, that we all love and admire, just imposed its will.
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If that's the way you feel about it I don't understand how you can be so equivocal about the the Shinners and their PIRA masters.
 
Purple said:
If that's the way you feel about it I don't understand how you can be so equivocal about the the Shinners and their PIRA masters.
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Its not the way I feel about it, it is simply the truth of the matter. The office of our President and Taoiseach, supported by the entire political establishment of Ireland commemorate the actions of a military junta that, without a mandate from its people, imposed its will on the people through violent means resulting in the deaths of hundreds of its own innocent civilians. Some of those killed were children and many were killed and disappeared for being alleged informers who just happened coincidentally to be mostly Protestant.
I mean, what happend happened, but why is it still commemorated and honoured when it is of the very type of actions that would be condemned today?

Its hard to listen to those who on the one hand condemn PIRA while simultaneously stand behind and honour IRB and GOIRA.
 
Purple said:
The IRA didn't see it that way so they didn't recognise this country or the legitimacy of our government.
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Nor did the IRB recognise the legitimacy of the British government, despite the Irish people being represented at parliament in Westminster. Why does our political establishment continue to commemorate and honour those that through violent means, and no authority, sought to overthrow the recognised authority of the day?
 
WolfeTone said:
Way off topic, but no I do not know how our PS pay compares to OECD average.
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If it's ok to compare the percentage of workers in the PS to OECD averages, I fail to see how comparing rates of pay is so way off topic...
 
WolfeTone said:
Ok, accepting PS wages are wage above OECD average, this is just a good reason for Public Sector workers in Northern Ireland to want to be part of a UI.
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I don't think it would take them too long to look at what the rates of pay & pensions south of the border are and say "I'll have a bit of that thanks". Of course it will mean higher taxes, more national debt or diversion of funds from other places to fund this..
 
Firefly said:
If it's ok to compare the percentage of workers in the PS to OECD averages, I fail to see how comparing rates of pay is so way off topic...
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The comparison of workers was made in the context amalgamating public services north and south. Im not sure why PS wages in Ireland (down south) comparison with OECD was made, that's all? Maybe you can elborate?

Perhaps if you took the public sector wage bill as it stands today in NI and Ire, averaged it all up, and then compared to OECD average that might have some reasoning behind it?
But either way or more, what does is the significance of the wage level being above average have?

Im not sure how you have concluded that applying better pay and conditions to public sector workers automatically means higher taxes or more national debt. Certainly a diversion of funds from other places may, or may not be, required. In the UK for instance, the higher rate of tax of 40% does not kick in until £50,000 (€55,000) whereas here it is a lot lower. So perhaps there is scope in the income tax rates, or corporate tax rates, or CGT, VAT, etc, etc that can be adjusted?
 
WolfeTone said:
The comparison of workers was made in the context amalgamating public services north and south. Im not sure why PS wages in Ireland (down south) comparison with OECD was made, that's all? Maybe you can elborate?
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You combined ROI & NI PS workers to come up with a percentage of just under 20%. You quote the OECD average as around 18%, adding "I think we could survive a just-above-average public sector for sometime".

So if it's ok to compare the number / percentage of PS workers to OECD averages and say it's OK, surely we should compare rates of pay and if necessary bring those into line also?
 
Firefly said:
So if it's ok to compare the number / percentage of PS workers to OECD averages and say it's OK, surely we should compare rates of pay and if necessary bring those into line also?
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Yes, if you want? No problem.

So what is the average pay of Public Sector workers Ireland and NI in a combined UI? Where would it compare to the OECD average and what is the significance of that?
 
WolfeTone said:
Yes, if you want? No problem.

So what is the average pay of Public Sector workers Ireland and NI in a combined UI? Where would it compare to the OECD average and what is the significance of that?
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Remember that everyone in NI is subsidised by the "Please don't kill each other" bribe paid by the British. Therefore they'd want parity with PS employees in this country in order to maintain their standard of living.
 
You might want to look at who killed the children during 1916. The fact is that this country supported the actions of the IRA, as confirmed in the 1919 election. This country exists because of their actions. The PIRA were open in their wish to destroy this country and considered our police and armed forces to be legitimate targets and our politicians to be their enemy. The PIRA members born here were, by any measure, traitors to this country. Those members born in the UK were foreign combatants.

Why would we commemorate those people, people who regarded those loyal to this country as enemies?

Why would we not support the people who won us our freedom? They didn't know at that stage that Michael Collins would betray the people in Northern Ireland. We don't commemorate that event, we commemorate the fight for freedom from British rule.

Should we now view that in a broader context? Should we remember that the Unionists in Northern Ireland are as Irish as we are but their version of Irishness is different to ours? Yes, on both counts, but the Shinner narrative of moral and political relativism between the 1920's and the 1980's is bogus nonsense.

If they said they had some justification until 1972 but everything after that was just sectarian terrorism which morphed into almost complete criminality by the late 80's then they'd have some credibility but they don't say that so they don't have any credibility. For nearly all of the 30 years it was about revenge and power and greed and self delusion and that was expressed in day to day bullying and fear and intimidation with the occasional murder. For most of the 30 years they were more like the Kinahan Gang and the IRA or IRB.

Maybe you know more about the history of the War of Independence but I don't recall reading about the IRA running protection rackets or licencing drug dealers or covering up child rape or all of the other grubby nasty ways the PIRA ran their criminal gang and enriched their leaders.
 
This comparison between the WoI and the PIRA NI campaign is totally bogus and unfortunately we have fallen for the SF ruse to engage in that debate.
Considering the ends to the two events tells it all. After 2 and a bit years of WoI the negotiations were very influenced by the WoI with a form of independence being conceded by the Brits in response to the resistance. The GFA on the other hand contained absolutely nothing which resulted from the 25 year pointless sectarian PIRA campaign. It simply applied the Sunningdale dispensation of 25 years earlier.
 
WolfeTone said:
So what is the average pay of Public Sector workers Ireland and NI in a combined UI?
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I think if you are going to compare the quantity of public sector workers to the OECD average, you should compare the cost of same.
 
Purple said:
The fact is that this country supported the actions of the IRA, as confirmed in the 1919 election.This country exists because of their actions.
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This is the false narrative. The myth.
The SF vote was won on the SF manifesto. It implied an end to British rule "by all means necessary" but violent action was never explicit, nor was it ever subsequently endorsed by the Dáil.

Arthur Griffith, founder of SF and vice-President at the time was a monarchist.
His means for an independent Ireland was by civil disobedience and abstentionism, not violent insurrection.
It was the policies of abstentionism, ostracisation of RIC members, non-cooperation with tax collection, collapse of the court system, striking workers, transport workers refusing to carry British military personnel and equipment - these were the effective, peaceful, strategies that let the British know Ireland was lost.

The IRA, numbering somewhere between 10-15,000, a pitiful fraction of the Irish Volunteers 170,000 a few years earlier, were vehemently opposed by Catholic Church and most media. Their war was neither sanctioned nor sought by the Irish people. It was British heavy-handed responses to IRA attacks that sustained life and support in the guerrilla campaign. Something that would repeat itself after Derry and Ballymurphy in 1970's.

It wasn't until January 1921 that the Dáil actually debated a motion to formally declare a state of war against Britain.
The motion was defeated.
The parliament of the people, in control of a massive SF majority, couldn't even bring itself to give formal support for the IRA. How pathetic is that?

The IRA was broadly a law unto itself, whose actions expedited Britains withdrawal. But it was by no means an army of the people, or an army that held widespread majority public support. It did not.

Purple said:
Those members born in the UK were foreign combatants.
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All the members of IRB and GOIRA in WoI were born in UK.


Purple said:
Should we remember that the Unionists in Northern Ireland are as Irish as we are but their version of Irishness is different to ours? Yes, on both counts,
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Wait a second, PIRA members born in UK are foreigners, but Unionists born in UK are as Irish as we are?

I'm sorry, but these narratives are simply cherry-picking whatever bits taste nice, depending on what day of week it is, but completely avoiding the bits that are hard to swallow.


I'm asking why those who are quick to condemn PIRA (and perhaps I'm being misunderstood, I'm not standing up for PIRA) get their moral justification to commemorate private armies with no mandate who took it upon themselves to engage in slaughter. The claim that
is someone all part of the fight for my 'freedom', it is not. They have as much a neck to claim it was for my freedom as PIRA do with the Enniskillen massacre.

Purple said:
I don't recall reading about the IRA running protection rackets or licencing drug dealers or covering up child rape or all of the other grubby nasty ways the PIRA ran their criminal gang and enriched their leaders.
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You may not have read about it but the kangaroo courts set up by the Dáil and administered mostly by IRA volunteers was mostly a charade of justice depending on who knew who, and how much influence they could wield. Depending on which part of the country you were in, at which particular time, the administration of 'justice' in one part of the country was at total odds in another part. It was gombeenism for the most part.

Duke of Marmalade said:
Considering the ends to the two events tells it all.
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It is a peculiarty that the ends of conflicts must match to have any comparison.

But to make the comparison anyway, the Government of Ireland Act, received Royal assent on Dec 1920, bringing into being partition of the country and the creation of NI.
The most violent intense period of WoI happened between Nov 1920 tíl the truce in July1921. Some 1,000 people lost their lives, civilians and combatants. And for what?
A treaty that the British government had already legislated for 8 months previously?
Obviously the time differential between Sunningdale and IRA ceasefire is obvious. But the outcome is similar, a treaty agreement that had already been in place meaning the lives of so many were lost for no good reason.

It is only by the grace of God, or King George, that Britain had a PM prepared to come to a negotiating table with those he considered as terrorists, rather than stringing out a long low-level covert war to the point of inevitable deadlock.
 
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Firefly said:
I think if you are going to compare the quantity of public sector workers to the OECD average, you should compare the cost of same.
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I told you, I do not know how our PS pay compares to OECD average. Purple says its above average. I will go with that.
I do not know how PS pay in NI compares to OECD average.
 
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