Recording without consenting

[Ualtar]

@Ualtar be very well prepared for your discussion with the gardaí. Write everything down before you go down to your appointment. Specific details, dates / times / events etc., you will be making a statement so be 100% accurate in everything you say...

Best of luck with it all - this is a nightmare to be going through...

Also, with advances in technology, I wouldn't be surprised if you found additional listening (or even image recording) devices. Some of these things are quite small & easily hidden. Personally, I would be going through every square inch of each and every room looking for such devices.

I have a two pages word file with all dates, times and events.
While he was here, we sort of freaked out thinking everything was being recorded. It is/was a horrible feeling open your house in good faith for someone you think you know and at the end you have all these problems to handle it.

Thanks God he made a mistake draining my internet connection and everything came to the light. Otherwise, we would probably still be living with him.

 

[Jazz01]

Thanks God he made a mistake draining my internet connection and everything came to the light. Otherwise, we would probably still be living with him.

Kinda wonder - is this the first time he has done this kind of thing or just the first time he got caught. Might be doing the same thing at where ever he's staying now

 

[Páid]

Check your phone for any apps you don't recognise.

 

[DeeKie]

Unfortunately the data protection laws may not be much good to you because of the household exemption. However there is Article 8 CFR, the constitution and maybe the lease he signed? Do you have anything on him? I’d try to find something

 

[Ualtar]

Unfortunately the data protection laws may not be much good to you because of the household exemption. However there is Article 8 CFR, the constitution and maybe the lease he signed? Do you have anything on him? I’d try to find something

Yes, I have a License Agreement because he rented a spared room in my house, not the entire property.

 

[cremeegg]

For your own peace of mind just move on. That’s my advice.

 

[DeeKie]

For your own peace of mind just move on. That’s my advice.

Hard to move on when some nut job has highly intimate information about you and others to be fair. Who knows what he will do with it. He’s threatening the OP.

 

[Thirsty]

IANAL

My understanding is that recording your own conversation with another person(s) is not illegal. It is however illegal to share or distribute it without the consent of all parties. Extortion is also a criminal offence.

 

[Leo]

Unfortunately the data protection laws may not be much good to you because of the household exemption.

I believe that is intended to cover normal household activities such as the family correspondence and the keeping of phone / address books, allows parents to maintain medical records, etc.. The payment of rent here creates a landlord/licensee relationship that likely brings this context outside the remit. I don't think it extends to secret recordings of therapy sessions, and it certainly doesn't allow for the publication of any data that might otherwise be considered exempt.

 

[Ualtar]

I went to Garda Station to make the statement as scheduled.
It's appalling what I had to hear from the Garda officer.
He read the email with the threats and assumed that the guy was not threatening to physically hurt me. I had to point out that the he had no way of guaranteeing this. He probably didn't give a damn about all the threats left in my voice mailbox.

The officer said that recording someone else is not a crime. That he is recorded on the street constantly and cannot stop it. At that time, I asked him if he was kidding. Wanting to compare a civil servant on duty being recorded by citizens with an individual recording another individual and using that to threaten physically and psychologically. I had to quote the Interception of Postal Packets and Telecommunications (Regulation) Act 1993 that Leo mentioned earlier.

I came out of there more frustrated than I arrived. Now I understand why my former housemate was so confident that the protective measure and other things in progress against him will come to nothing.

My whole life I've never had to deal with Gardaí, but this officer is either new or he thinks I'm too dumb.
Pity, nobody higher rank was there at the moment I was giving my statement, but I will address this situation as soon as possible. I am fuming!

 

[shipibo]

I went to Garda Station to make the statement as scheduled.
It's appalling what I had to hear from the Garda officer.
He read the email with the threats and assumed that the guy was not threatening to physically hurt me. I had to point out that the he had no way of guaranteeing this. He probably didn't give a damn about all the threats left in my voice mailbox.

The officer said that recording someone else is not a crime. That he is recorded on the street constantly and cannot stop it. At that time, I asked him if he was kidding. Wanting to compare a civil servant on duty being recorded by citizens with an individual recording another individual and using that to threaten physically and psychologically. I had to quote the Interception of Postal Packets and Telecommunications (Regulation) Act 1993 that Leo mentioned earlier.

I came out of there more frustrated than I arrived. Now I understand why my former housemate was so confident that the protective measure and other things in progress against him will come to nothing.

My whole life I've never had to deal with Gardaí, but this officer is either new or he thinks I'm too dumb.
Pity, nobody higher rank was there at the moment I was giving my statement, but I will address this situation as soon as possible. I am fuming!

Ualtar,

First off, condolences on your loss, and hopefully the grief is easing, time is a great healer


The Gardai example is incorrect. In his scenario, he was aware he was being recorded, so can adapt to it.

Both parties in that example were aware of recording. In your scenario, neither party was aware of recording, it was an outside party without permission

Check out TJ McIntyre website to see if anything fits your criterion, also if you are contacting a solicitor , check his credentials in Digital Law, most have ZERO knowledge

http://www.tjmcintyre.com/search/label/surveillance

From a practical perspective, the perp could have backed up the data to multiple drives, cloud platforms or printed the conversations ... The Gardai do not have the resources to read metadata on initial device to see if data was replicated to other device, and find that device , and on ....

Any further help, do not hesitate to respond

 

[Ualtar]

Ualtar,

First off, condolences on your loss, and hopefully the grief is easing, time is a great healer

Thank you crumdub12. It is mix of feelings when I think the guy could have recordings between me and my therapist and he knows very personal things about me, my parents, my family. He could also be bluffing just to torment me, but I'll never be sure if it's not through legal channels.

The Gardai example is incorrect. In his scenario, he was aware he was being recorded, so can adapt to it.
Both parties in that example were aware of recording. In your scenario, neither party was aware of recording, it was an outside party without permission

Check out TJ McIntyre website to see if anything fits your criterion, also if you are contacting a solicitor , check his credentials in Digital Law, most have ZERO knowledge
http://www.tjmcintyre.com/search/label/surveillance

The example given by the officer only demonstrates the lack of knowledge and training that is given to Gardaí officers. They even do not know the basic Constitutional Rights.
I read some posts but none of them match my case. Anyway, thank you very much. I will contact a solicitor and keep you guys posted.

 

[Leo]

He could also be bluffing just to torment me, but I'll never be sure if it's not through legal channels.

I think you need to accept that even the full force of legal channels are unlikely to fully establish what he did or did not record. Data that has been digitised can be copied and moved many times to many places with little or no record. Most devices will not retain logs of the full details of access or movement of data. Those that do can easily be modified by someone who knows what they're doing.

The example given by the officer only demonstrates the lack of knowledge and training that is given to Gardaí officers. They even do not know the basic Constitutional Rights.
I read some posts but none of them match my case. Anyway, thank you very much. I will contact a solicitor and keep you guys posted.

A solicitor is likely your best bet for impartial advice here. The Gardai often don't go out of their way to do much more than put on record your complaint in issues such as this, but then, their focus is criminal law and some of what you're talking about here is civil. Unless you package up a nice neat bundle of evidence of a breach of criminal law there is little they will do. For instance, with reference to the Interception of Postal Packets and Telecommunications Act, that does not protect Zoom or other VC platforms, it hasn't evolved with the times.

 

[Slim]

This Irish Times article has some useful information.
TLDR. While it is not illegal for a private citizen to record another private citizen, there may be recourse in civil court for breach of privacy. Rules are different for employers, of course. In the OP's case, the tenant did not breach criminal law but may be liable for civil action for breach of privacy. There may also be grounds for civil action for harassment.

Is it legal to record someone without their consent?

'Doing an Omarosa' is as easy as opening an app. But are you breaking the law?

www.irishtimes.com

 

[peemac]

I went to Garda Station to make the statement as scheduled.
It's appalling what I had to hear from the Garda officer.
He read the email with the threats and assumed that the guy was not threatening to physically hurt me. I had to point out that the he had no way of guaranteeing this. He probably didn't give a damn about all the threats left in my voice mailbox.

The officer said that recording someone else is not a crime. That he is recorded on the street constantly and cannot stop it. At that time, I asked him if he was kidding. Wanting to compare a civil servant on duty being recorded by citizens with an individual recording another individual and using that to threaten physically and psychologically. I had to quote the Interception of Postal Packets and Telecommunications (Regulation) Act 1993 that Leo mentioned earlier.

I came out of there more frustrated than I arrived. Now I understand why my former housemate was so confident that the protective measure and other things in progress against him will come to nothing.

My whole life I've never had to deal with Gardaí, but this officer is either new or he thinks I'm too dumb.
Pity, nobody higher rank was there at the moment I was giving my statement, but I will address this situation as soon as possible. I am fuming!

As I read down the thread I could have written what the Garda response would be and it would have been exactly as you found it.

I unfortunately have first hand experience of utter incompetence and inexperience of gardai when it comes to mental health issues and anything within that sphere.

Incompetent, uninterested and downright patronising is a very apt description.

You will not get anywhere unless you can escalate it to detective level.

I would do a report to his ex girlfriend and allow her send it to her solicitor, but I really think you will get nowhere with the gardai as it simply is not something that they have any understanding or empathy for.

 

[shipibo]

Two cases in Irish Law regarding " Intercept " ( Telecommunication message where sender / receiver have not given consent to record ) are below

State sought to defend phone tapping despite conceding its illegality

Chief state solicitor wrote that Irish Times report rendered case ‘incapable of fair trial’

www.irishtimes.com

Family awarded €70,000 over garda leak

A family who were forced to leave their new home because of the leaking of confidential information by gardaí have been awarded €70,000.

www.rte.ie

Hopefully they can help

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

It will be very difficult to prove that the recordings were covert given that you lived together.

Suppose he has recordings of you with your therapist. He could claim that you talked to your therapist in the living room with him present. He could claim that you recorded them yourself and left them on a USB drive and left it in the kitchen and he took it by mistake.

He got a protective order from his ex-girlfriend and I witnessed the aggression. I will be her witness in February during the hearing court.

What this could be, however, is witness intimidation. Did you mention this aspect to the Garda?

 

[Ualtar]

It will be very difficult to prove that the recordings were covert given that you lived together.

Suppose he has recordings of you with your therapist. He could claim that you talked to your therapist in the living room with him present. He could claim that you recorded them yourself and left them on a USB drive and left it in the kitchen and he took it by mistake.

Due to the pandemic, online therapy must follow strict rules in order to happen.

1. it has to be in a safe application of the therapist's choice and in a reserved place where only me and the therapist are. No one else.
2. The sessions are online and are not recorded on my computer or on the therapist's computer. The therapist makes notes of points that he/she thinks are important.

I have always tried to schedule the sessions for when I was alone at home. Not even my spouse (who I trust most) would stay at home.
Your argument that he can claim this or that is completely unsupported.

By the way, I don't need to prove anything about the recordings. He has already confessed in the email and voice messages left on my mobile phone that he had been recording for 2 months.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

Your argument that he can claim this or that is completely unsupported.

Supported by what? It's just a thought experiment.

You lived with the man under the same roof. There are several innocent explanations he could advance for being in possession of recordings between you and your therapist. Everyone has a recording device in their pocket now and I am sure there are people who record their sessions or carry them out with other people present despite rules to the contrary. Claims that you were alone at home at the time are moot.

Of course I believe you, but he may be able to generate a reasonable doubt.

 

[Leo]

I have always tried to schedule the sessions for when I was alone at home. Not even my spouse (who I trust most) would stay at home.
Your argument that he can claim this or that is completely unsupported.

Playing devil's advocate, he could claim that he just overheard the conversation or recorded it while recording his own activity. Remember, the recording of zoom calls, or calls over any app is not protected by law.

By the way, I don't need to prove anything about the recordings. He has already confessed in the email and voice messages left on my mobile phone that he had been recording for 2 months.

I'm afraid an admission over email in an exchange like that is not sufficient evidence of the existence of a recording. All he has to do is say he was just winding you up.