Public service reform

[josh8267]

I find your posts really hard to read. The punctuation, when present, is in the wrong places. There are capital letters everywhere and there is no structure.
You keep telling people to Google "Pension 370000". Why not post the details of what you are trying to say here? It is a discussion forum after all.

"The public servant they served us well up to there retirement," Are you related to Yoda?

To be clear; whatever loopholes there are in private sector pensions the abyss the state is facing is the cost of unfunded State pensions over the coming decades. They will suck up more and more of our current expenditure until the State is bankrupt again.

I know for sure the public servants I grew up with who are now retiring are as good as the people now retiring in the private sector,

The are the same people If I switched the private sector workers I know into the public sector workers I know, The same service I would get,

The only thing I know for sure is The parties I voted for all of my life have left massive loopholes In the system for vested Interest group which need to be reformed,
By the way Googling loopholes will not get you a good result,

 

[Purple]

The are the same people If I switched the private sector workers I know into the public sector workers I know, The same service I would get,

"The public servant they served us well up to there retirement," Are you related to Yoda?

Right I was it seems.

 

[Deiseblue]

So a constitutional change enabling a total ban on Trade Unions in the State and a sequestering of their funds following Hitler’s example in 1933 is what you wish to see happen .
In even your most optimistic moments do you really think that there is even the remotest chance that this unlikeliest of events will ever happen ?
We are only gradually seeing Public Sector salaries returning to 2007 pre recession levels with the Government as employers and the Unions representing employees agreeing graduated increases over that time period as finances improved - pay negotiations after all are a two way street.
Indeed the only Public Sector wide strike I remember was a one day affair years ago and subsequent strike days by nurses and teachers only lasted a couple of days.
The maximum public sector pension is 50% of final salary for some and 50% of a career averaged salary for others depending on when you were first employed .
Sure there is a lump sum equivalent to 1.5 times your salary after 40 years service but I’m sure employees would far prefer to have the option of availing of a 2/3rds pension given life expectancy levels .
Unlike me , a retiree from a private sector DB scheme , Public Sector employees do not receive the OAP rather it is integrated into their pension and all this for contributions equating to approximately three times what I contributed towards my infinitely better scheme .
I take great consolation in knowing that your wishes will simply remain wishes.

 

[ATC110]

I know for sure the public servants I grew up with who are now retiring are as good as the people now retiring in the private sector,

The are the same people If I switched the private sector workers I know into the public sector workers I know, The same service I would get,

The only thing I know for sure is The parties I voted for all of my life have left massive loopholes In the system for vested Interest group which need to be reformed,
By the way Googling loopholes will not get you a good result,

What?

 

[ATC110]

So a constitutional change enabling a total ban on Trade Unions in the State and a sequestering of their funds following Hitler’s example in 1933 is what you wish to see happen .
In even your most optimistic moments do you really think that there is even the remotest chance that this unlikeliest of events will ever happen ?
We are only gradually seeing Public Sector salaries returning to 2007 pre recession levels with the Government as employers and the Unions representing employees agreeing graduated increases over that time period as finances improved - pay negotiations after all are a two way street.
Indeed the only Public Sector wide strike I remember was a one day affair years ago and subsequent strike days by nurses and teachers only lasted a couple of days.
The maximum public sector pension is 50% of final salary for some and 50% of a career averaged salary for others depending on when you were first employed .
Sure there is a lump sum equivalent to 1.5 times your salary after 40 years service but I’m sure employees would far prefer to have the option of availing of a 2/3rds pension given life expectancy levels .
Unlike me , a retiree from a private sector DB scheme , Public Sector employees do not receive the OAP rather it is integrated into their pension and all this for contributions equating to approximately three times what I contributed towards my infinitely better scheme .
I take great consolation in knowing that your wishes will simply remain wishes.

No mention that PS workers only pay circa one third of the cost of their future "reduced pay" with the taxpayer paying the remainder; it's not a pension as that would suggest it's funded rather than financed out of day-to-day taxation.
Due to diminishing returns Defined Benefit pensions are virtually obsolete now so why should one sector be shielded from the rigours of the free market economy with the taxpayer funding it? Put them all on fully self-financed Defined Contribution schemes.
Public Sector Unions hold the country to ransom to get what they want by suspending essential services and/or discommoding the public. They are the real subversive organisations undermining the future viability and sovereignty of the state.

 

[Deiseblue]

Again absolute wishful thinking - Trade Unions major function is to protect and where possible enhance the terms and conditions of their members for which they need make no apologies .
It simply goes to show that you are always better off in a Union than not.
Whereas I’m simply pointing out the realities of the mutually agreed position between employer and employee I’m afraid your wishes/solutions are simply pie in the sky.

 

[WolfeTone]

Defined Benefit pensions are virtually obsolete now so why should one sector be shielded from the rigours of the free market economy with the taxpayer funding it?

So you want to invoke Hitlers policy of outlawing trade unions.
Do you realize how that sounds?

We live under a constitutional democracy, I respect your right to hold the views that you do.
But only insofar as that you respect my right to hold my views that I do (being the right to be a member of a trade union).
Do you respect my right, and others, to hold such a view?

It may be of some relevance to countenance that trade unions exist across the world. The only exception, thinking off the top of my head, is Saudi Arabia.
Are you an Arab prince?

 

[Purple]

So you want to invoke Hitlers policy of outlawing trade unions.
Do you realize how that sounds?

We live under a constitutional democracy, I respect your right to hold the views that you do.
But only insofar as that you respect my right to hold my views that I do (being the right to be a member of a trade union).
Do you respect my right, and others, to hold such a view?

It may be of some relevance to countenance that trade unions exist across the world. The only exception, thinking off the top of my head, is Saudi Arabia.
Are you an Arab prince?

Trade Unions are a big part of the problem in that they protect the haves from the have-nots. They styme reform and are an enemy of the public good, as are all vested interest groups. If they weren't an enemy of the public good then they wouldn't be doing their job as, at their core, they are there to get as much money for as little work for their members. The result is that precious State income is wasted, old people die on trolleys, children with special needs don't get the support they need, there's no money for youth mental health services so children's lives are ruined before they start (or ended before they start). The list is endless.

Unions are most of the holes in the leaky bucket that is the State sector. In my opinion the people who run them and the people in them who are not agitating for reform have blood on their hands. I fully respect your right to support such organisations but I find it tragic that you do and I say that not trying to score a point, rather I believe it deeply. Trade Unions have become the pigs at the table at the end of Orwell's Animal Farm and the people they were set up to represent are outside in the cold looking in the windows.

I wouldn't ban Unions, maybe because of my family's links to the foundation of the Trade Union movement in this country, but I would hope that they could be more than the amoral vested interest groups that will sacrifice absolutely anything and anyone on the altar of that self interests.

 

[WolfeTone]

Trade Unions are a big part of the problem in that they protect the haves from the have-nots. They styme reform and are an enemy of the public good, as are all vested interest groups. If they weren't an enemy of the public good then they wouldn't be doing their job as, at their core, they are there to get as much money for as little work for their members. The result is that precious State income is wasted, old people die on trolleys, children with special needs don't get the support they need, there's no money for youth mental health services so children's lives are ruined before they start (or ended before they start). The list is endless.

Unions are most of the holes in the leaky bucket that is the State sector. In my opinion the people who run them and the people in them who are not agitating for reform have blood on their hands. I fully respect your right to support such organisations but I find it tragic that you do and I say that not trying to score a point, rather I believe it deeply. Trade Unions have become the pigs at the table at the end of Orwell's Animal Farm and the people they were set up to represent are outside in the cold looking in the windows.

I wouldn't ban Unions, maybe because of my family's links to the foundation of the Trade Union movement in this country, but I would hope that they could be more than the amoral vested interest groups that will sacrifice absolutely anything and anyone on the altar of that self interests.

I couldn't disagree more.
That said im not immune from criticising my own trade union or trade unions in general for some positions they have taken in the past .
But to conflate that as evidence of 'blood on hands' and proof that 'old people die on trolleys' is down to them is silly.

 

[ATC110]

Again absolute wishful thinking - Trade Unions major function is to protect and where possible enhance the terms and conditions of their members for which they need make no apologies .
It simply goes to show that you are always better off in a Union than not.
Whereas I’m simply pointing out the realities of the mutually agreed position between employer and employee I’m afraid your wishes/solutions are simply pie in the sky.

PS trade unions are unnecessary and an oxymoron; workers' rights are enshrined in national and EU law and working for the PS is not a 'trade'. The government is the employer, paying these gold-plated wages and conditions from borrowed funds adding to the national debt. They're not some avaricious arch-capitalist organisation.
PS militant union intransigence has led to an embedded and entitled workforce who are on a perpetual work-to-rule and totally inflexible. Dail staff on strike for more pay to use the infamous printer being a case in point. No wonder the government has handed over responsibility to the private sector for housing, care and nursing provision - staff can be employed on an as-and-when needed basis rather than legion numbers of underworked and overpaid PS staff who are virtually unsackable whether there's work for them or not

 

[ATC110]

So you want to invoke Hitlers policy of outlawing trade unions.
Do you realize how that sounds?

We live under a constitutional democracy, I respect your right to hold the views that you do.
But only insofar as that you respect my right to hold my views that I do (being the right to be a member of a trade union).
Do you respect my right, and others, to hold such a view?

It may be of some relevance to countenance that trade unions exist across the world. The only exception, thinking off the top of my head, is Saudi Arabia.
Are you an Arab prince?

What?

 

[josh8267]

PS trade unions are unnecessary and an oxymoron; workers' rights are enshrined in national and EU law and working for the PS is not a 'trade'. The government is the employer, paying these gold-plated wages and conditions from borrowed funds adding to the national debt. They're not some avaricious arch-capitalist organisation.
PS militant union intransigence has led to an embedded and entitled workforce who are on a perpetual work-to-rule and totally inflexible. Dail staff on strike for more pay to use the infamous printer being a case in point. No wonder the government has handed over responsibility to the private sector for housing, care and nursing provision - staff can be employed on an as-and-when needed basis rather than legion numbers of underworked and overpaid PS staff who are virtually unsackable whether there's work for them or not

When I see views like the above I know proper Government reform will never happen there is much reform needed in the private sector than the public sector,

 

[Sophrosyne]

No wonder the government has handed over responsibility to the private sector for housing, care and nursing provision - staff can be employed on an as-and-when needed basis rather than legion numbers of underworked and overpaid PS staff who are virtually unsackable whether there's work for them or not

Do you know that agency nursing costs the exchequer more than public sector nursing equivalents?

Absolutely, reform is needed but you are not going about this the right way.

 

[josh8267]

Trade Unions are a big part of the problem in that they protect the haves from the have-nots. They styme reform and are an enemy of the public good, as are all vested interest groups. If they weren't an enemy of the public good then they wouldn't be doing their job as, at their core, they are there to get as much money for as little work for their members. The result is that precious State income is wasted, old people die on trolleys, children with special needs don't get the support they need, there's no money for youth mental health services so children's lives are ruined before they start (or ended before they start). The list is endless.

Unions are most of the holes in the leaky bucket that is the State sector. In my opinion the people who run them and the people in them who are not agitating for reform have blood on their hands. I fully respect your right to support such organisations but I find it tragic that you do and I say that not trying to score a point, rather I believe it deeply. Trade Unions have become the pigs at the table at the end of Orwell's Animal Farm and the people they were set up to represent are outside in the cold looking in the windows.

I wouldn't ban Unions, maybe because of my family's links to the foundation of the Trade Union movement in this country, but I would hope that they could be more than the amoral vested interest groups that will sacrifice absolutely anything and anyone on the altar of that self interests.

Until we see major reform and the closing off loopholes and fairness there cannot be any reform ,

They is a lot of vested interest groups ripping the taxpayer and giving nothing back in return,

They are bringing this country down and most don't want to see but they will pay for is in the future and i am not talking about Unions, in fact unions in some cases could do more to point out what is going on because long term it will affect there members,

 

[MOB]

Unlike me , a retiree from a private sector DB scheme , Public Sector employees do not receive the OAP rather it is integrated into their pension and all this for contributions equating to approximately three times what I contributed towards my infinitely better scheme .

Ah come on now; no point comparing apples with unicorns; You have said before that you took the early retirement package from BOI. Your pension is the result of a clearly unsustainable arrangement with a bank that was bailed out by the rest of us and on pension terms no longer offered by that bank anyway.

 

[josh8267]

Ah come on now; no point comparing apples with unicorns; You have said before that you took the early retirement package from BOI. Your pension is the result of a clearly unsustainable arrangement with a bank that was bailed out by the rest of us and on pension terms no longer offered by that bank anyway.

One more reason why reform is needed in the private sector

 

[MOB]

One more reason why reform is needed in the private sector

Well, perhaps more is needed. OK - no perhaps about it; But the point is that BOI was able to drop its unsustainable scheme.

 

[Deiseblue]

Ah come on now; no point comparing apples with unicorns; You have said before that you took the early retirement package from BOI. Your pension is the result of a clearly unsustainable arrangement with a bank that was bailed out by the rest of us and on pension terms no longer offered by that bank anyway.

I have posted on many occasions the details of my extremely generous early retirement package from Bank of Ireland .
I did this in various threads to illustrate exactly where the “ rolls royce “ type pensions exist particularly when one can claim the OAP in addition to one’s occupational pension unlike public sector employees.
I also posted this information to illustrate the benefits of working in a hugely unionised sector.
The defined benefit pension scheme still exists in Bank of Ireland ( indeed they would have loved to have dropped it but thankfully the Union kiboshed that ) - my wife retired some 10 years after me on exactly the same terms albeit with longer service and therefore a more generous pension and a larger lump sum.
All Bank of Ireland staff recruited before 2007 will remain as deferred members of the DB scheme until retirement so this scheme could feasibly run for another 33/34 years , indeed such is the Bank’s desperation to alter this scheme they offered to buy back deferred members pensions with little success.
Employees recruited post 2007 have access to a life balanced scheme which is part defined benefit and part voluntary defined contributions - contributions to the DC portion being voluntary .
An employee can contribute 3% to the DC scheme which will be matched by the Bank - employees received a 3% pay increase to set off their contributions.
It should also be noted that such employees can also claim the OAP in addition to their occupational pension.
This at a time when the deficit in the DB pension was running at 1.6 billion euro ( thankfully the deficit has been reduced to approx 400 million ) , I believe that the Union did an extremely good job in negotiating the new hybrid scheme , a scheme apparently that has proved attractive to other companies.

 

[Leper]

Déise, you continuously post better than most on this forum. You sometimes appear to be the one cured leper who returned to say thanks. You make no illusions especially with your union references especially on the good pay-off you received when the bank decided to ditch you. You earned every penny of it and you owe nobody any apology for what you got.

Don't forget it paid the bank to get rid of you. BOI and AIB brought in experts to implement early-retirement/voluntary exit deals. The banks made money on these deals when everything is considered. You made a few bob too and best of luck to you. Enjoy.

Incidentally, I heard recently of the demise of Johnny Matthews,(Waterford FC) an excellent footballer who made many of his team-mates look good.

 

[Deiseblue]

Thanks Leper .
Johnny died on Christmas Day , won a record 7 League titles , scored against Man United and Celtic and had a goal wrongly disallowed against Real Madrid.
More importantly a lovely guy who brought great joy to the City.