Public service reform

[ATC110]

There is not one political party or Independent even talking about public service reform or the public cost of the PS superannuation stipend.
This would involve dissolution of the public sector unions as they are the sole reason for poor/no service delivery.
The purpose of public services is not for the benefit of the employees but that’s increasingly the case. Public Sector unions are no longer required due to the numerous employment law protections enjoyed by the PS employees; Larkin would never have envisaged the benefits enshrined in law today.
It’s generally accepted that PS unions are preventing the reforms necessary taking place.
From workers going on strike to be paid extra for additional training taking place during the working day, the multiple types of paid leave on top of annual leave, which local authority employees are entitled to and rigidity of work practices and work location, major reform is urgently needed.
No government with any budget can ever improve public service delivery until this takes place.

 

[WolfeTone]

This would involve dissolution of the public sector unions as they are the sole reason for poor/no service delivery.

Was this post moved from the "Rise in extremist politics"?
How are public service unions the sole reason for poor/no service delivery and who are you calling upon to dissolve them?

The purpose of public services is not for the benefit of the employees but that’s increasingly the case.

Public services are a broad brush, could you be a little more specific?

Public Sector unions are no longer required due to the numerous employment law protections enjoyed by the PS employees

Surely union members are best placed to decide if they want to be in a union or not?

It’s generally accepted that PS unions are preventing the reforms necessary taking place.

Is it? Any specific reform in mind?

From workers going on strike to be paid extra for additional training taking place during the working day,

Is this upskilling?

the multiple types of paid leave on top of annual leave

Such as?

 

[ATC110]

Was this post moved from the "Rise in extremist politics"?
How are public service unions the sole reason for poor/no service delivery and who are you calling upon to dissolve them?

They're preventing reform - their sole interest is the protection of their members rather than service delivery.
The government, obviously.

Public services are a broad brush, could you be a little more specific?

Them all - they're all represented by militant unions

Surely union members are best placed to decide if they want to be in a union or not?

No - by definition, the purpose of public services is delivery of service to the public not prevention of same.

Is it? Any specific reform in mind?

Comprehensive

Is this upskilling?

Yes

Such as?

I don't work for a LA so I'm not privy to the 20 plus types of leave but this came up with the threatened strike at Roscommon CC last year when changes to flexi-leave were being opposed by the CC staff. For example, I know a senior fire officer who takes "flexi-leave" from October to January every year; utterly unbelievable.

 

[Sophrosyne]

"Flexi-leave from October to January" ???.

It would be unbelievable - if it were true, that is.

 

[WolfeTone]

"Flexi-leave from October to January" ???.

It would be unbelievable - if it were true, that is.

I hope you are not suggesting that its anything but true?

 

[josh8267]

The Private Sector Workers Can thank the Public Service Unions in a round about way for Getting the FF/FG/LAB cartel to restore pension age to 65,
Anyone who gets tax relief on there pension Contributions Can Also Thank The Public Service Unions In a Round About Way

When the tax Relief on pensions first Came into the private sector it was from lobbying by Members of the Cosy Cartel in the private sector for high earning sectors who pointed out they should be allowed to amass large Gold Plated Pensions just like the Unions in the public service had secured for there Members,
Later just like now with pensions FF/FG /LAB Second Class Menbers Cought Wind Of What Was Going ON ,

There was two things the Political Cartel could have Done Reform The Public Service Pensions and restrict tax relief
Well you know how that finished up The Had To Give The Same Tax Break To All Of There Second Class Members,,
So a Big thank you to the public service Unions From Average In Come Private Workers,
The Vested Interest Lobby Groups are already starting to pay , You Know the old FF Election Slogan Lot Done More To Pay,

When FF/FG/LAB Get Caught out they put there hands into the pockets of there First Class Supporters Pockets As Bertie Would say For A Dig Out,

I often Hear people talking about public service reform and when I dig a little deeper I find out they Support or are Members of Parties who failed to reform even though the member mouthing off put them in a position to do so,

I worked in the private sector all of my working life in an Engineering Company working on low Margins with very good repeat Business (, I Believe the Public service pension in around about way was the driving force behind lots of small company pension Schemes,

 

[cremeegg]

There is not one political party or Independent even talking about public service reform or the public cost of the PS superannuation stipend.
This would involve dissolution of the public sector unions as they are the sole reason for poor/no service delivery.

To say that public sector unions are the sole reason for poor service delivery, is a bit of a cop-out.

I used to believe this, but I have come increasingly to think that weak management is a larger part of the problem. PPars was primarily a management failure. The cost overruns in the Children's Hospital are primarily a management failure in the making.

The reasons for weak management are manifold, and strong unions are part of the issue, but its not Dublins fault that Mayo can't win an All-Ireland.

The career path for public sector managers, particularly those in senior positions now, was leave school, get a paper pushing job with the health board and work your way up. These people are stars of office politics, brilliant at working the system, not so good at changing the system.

Politics undermines public sector management. Any reform has to avoid offending short term political calculations, which include but are not limited to calculations around workers interests.

Centralising cancer services is a show case of how management can overcome theses issues, but in a well managed health service it could have been implemented much more quickly. And it might also have addressed the issue of people travelling for hours by bus from Donegal to Galway for chemo.

 

[josh8267]

To say that public sector unions are the sole reason for poor service delivery, is a bit of a cop-out.

I used to believe this, but I have come increasingly to think that weak management is a larger part of the problem. PPars was primarily a management failure. The cost overruns in the Children's Hospital are primarily a management failure in the making.

The reasons for weak management are manifold, and strong unions are part of the issue, but its not Dublins fault that Mayo can't win an All-Ireland.

The career path for public sector managers, particularly those in senior positions now, was leave school, get a paper pushing job with the health board and work your way up. These people are starts of office politics, brilliant at working the system, not so good at changing the system.

Politics undermines public sector management. Any reform has to avoid offending short term political calculations, which include but are not limited to calculations around workers interests.

Centralising cancer services is a show case of how management can overcome theses issues, but in a well managed health service it could have been implemented much more quickly. And it might also have addressed the issue of people travelling for hours by bus from Donegal to Galway for chemo.

spot on

 

[Purple]

There is not one political party or Independent even talking about public service reform or the public cost of the PS superannuation stipend.
This would involve dissolution of the public sector unions as they are the sole reason for poor/no service delivery.
The purpose of public services is not for the benefit of the employees but that’s increasingly the case. Public Sector unions are no longer required due to the numerous employment law protections enjoyed by the PS employees; Larkin would never have envisaged the benefits enshrined in law today.
It’s generally accepted that PS unions are preventing the reforms necessary taking place.
From workers going on strike to be paid extra for additional training taking place during the working day, the multiple types of paid leave on top of annual leave, which local authority employees are entitled to and rigidity of work practices and work location, major reform is urgently needed.
No government with any budget can ever improve public service delivery until this takes place.

Unless you feel like answering an endless number of vague questions from Wolfie I wouldn't waste my time, if I was you.
I think you'll find that the Public Service is badly run but not by the people who run it 9yes, I know that doesn't make sense but they are in the Union), efficient and everyone in it works above and beyond the call of duty. They are all also grossly underpaid.
All gardai, Doctors, Teachers, Nurses and all other so-called front line staff and bordering on super hero status. No, the only problem is the government and "managers".

The above is, or course, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Now, I've saved you a week's worth of your spare time.

 

[WolfeTone]

Unless you feel like answering an endless number of vague questions from Wolfie

Ouch! Its the start of a new week and perhaps the January blues have been shed? Time to go full throttle?

I will leave aside for the moment the inherent authoritarian diktat in ATC110 comment, which would have no place in a constitutional democracy.
I wont even ask a question, let alone a vague one. The notion of defining public sector reform as primarily, sorry solely, an issue to do with public sector unions is simplistic at best, completely devoid of any understanding of what the public service is and what it is for at worst.
Just so as to be clear, so im not interpreted as being vague, the OP is clueless.

 

[ATC110]

Ouch! Its the start of a new week and perhaps the January blues have been shed? Time to go full throttle?

I will leave aside for the moment the inherent authoritarian diktat in ATC110 comment, which would have no place in a constitutional democracy.
I wont even ask a question, let alone a vague one. The notion of defining public sector reform as primarily, sorry solely, an issue to do with public sector unions is simplistic at best, completely devoid of any understanding of what the public service is and what it is for at worst.

Nothing changes in service delivery due to union intransigence.

Just so as to be clear, so im not interpreted as being vague, the OP is clueless.

This is like wrestling with a pig; I'll follow Purple's suggestion

 

[Purple]

Nothing changes in service delivery due to union intransigence.

The Unions have a veto over any and all changes so yes, in effect they are a big part of the problem but ultimately strikes etc are a failure of management. when employees get to elect their bosses how can we expect anything other than what we have?

 

[dereko1969]

What reforms in the Public Sector are you looking for?
Given your point about Public Sector superannuation I presume you want PS employees to have their pension entitlements diminished? What sort of a reduction should they get?
I thought we were due an anti-public sector rant, just like buses now we've had two in a day!

 

[Purple]

What reforms in the Public Sector are you looking for?
Given your point about Public Sector superannuation I presume you want PS employees to have their pension entitlements diminished? What sort of a reduction should they get?
I thought we were due an anti-public sector rant, just like buses now we've had two in a day!

I'd like to see standardised contracts for all HSE grades so that, for example, nurses at the same grade in each hospital are on the same contract. That would enable far more efficient payroll systems.
I'd like to see best practice formalised across the Hospitals and rolled out in each hospital so that, for example, if St Vincent's hospital have the best method for managing admissions through A&E then all hospitals must use their system etc.
I'd like to see the retirement age for State employees the same as the State pension age (and that age should be 67 and then 68 and older as we live longer).

I'd like to see far more shared services across the entire State sector.
I'd like to see the Public Services card used for accessing all State services.
I'd like to see self funded pensions for everyone so that we don't foist even more of our costs on our grandchildren and their children.
While that's being rolled out I'd like to see the abolition of the Pension Levy for State employees , to be replaced by a smaller pay cut so that the burden can be shared by retired State employees.

That sort of thing.

Some of the money saved could be used to expand the Public Sector as it has not grown in line with general population or economic growth.

 

[josh8267]

I'd like to see standardised contracts for all HSE grades so that, for example, nurses at the same grade in each hospital are on the same contract. That would enable far more efficient payroll systems.
I'd like to see best practice formalised across the Hospitals and rolled out in each hospital so that, for example, if St Vincent's hospital have the best method for managing admissions through A&E then all hospitals must use their system etc.
I'd like to see the retirement age for State employees the same as the State pension age (and that age should be 67 and then 68 and older as we live longer).

I'd like to see far more shared services across the entire State sector.
I'd like to see the Public Services card used for accessing all State services.
I'd like to see self funded pensions for everyone so that we don't foist even more of our costs on our grandchildren and their children.
While that's being rolled out I'd like to see the abolition of the Pension Levy for State employees , to be replaced by a smaller pay cut so that the burden can be shared by retired State employees.

That sort of thing.

Some of the money saved could be used to expand the Public Sector as it has not grown in line with general population or economic growth.

There will be no changes in the HSE , While FF/FG/LAB Cosy Cartel keep speaking out of both sides of there Mouth at the same time,

Try spotting FF/FG/LAB second class supporters around Election Time singing there praises ,in the 30 to 50 age group The good news is the love paying extra tax for FF/FG/LAB to buy there way back to power,
You know that the say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different results,

 

[Purple]

There will be no changes in the HSE , While FF/FG/LAB Cosy Cartel keep speaking out of both sides of there Mouth at the same time,

Try spotting FF/FG/LAB second class supporters around Election Time singing there praises ,in the 30 to 50 age group The good news is the love paying extra tax for FF/FG/LAB to buy there way back to power,
You know that the say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different results,

The alternative is the extreme left of the Shinners, the communists of Solidarity or your local parish pump politician. I'd love to have a centralist progressive party to vote for but all parties in Ireland are well to the left of centre on economic issues.

 

[Deiseblue]

ATC110 , perhaps you you could outline your proposals to dissolve public sector unions ?
Bearing in mind that employees have a constitutional right to be represented by a Union do you simply suggest that the State simply follows Hitler’s example in outlawing Trade Unions in 1933 and sequestering all their funds ?
Presumably you would also like to see all Private Sector Unions dissolved as well ( a number of Unions represent both public and public sector workers ) - after all by not dissolving private sector unions then the state could be accused of favouritism!
Do you foresee a Strike that would render the State ungovernable?
Bearing in mind the above I would certainly think it would be infinitely simpler to wrestle a slippery pig.
I do look forward to reading your proposals.

 

[josh8267]

The alternative is the extreme left of the Shinners, the communists of Solidarity or your local parish pump politician. I'd love to have a centralist progressive party to vote for but all parties in Ireland are well to the left of centre on economic issues.

I remember the General election in Dec 1992 27 Dail when John Bruton saying he would not go into Government With Democratic Left ,
After the Election He kept his word he would rather be in opposition than go into Government with Democratic Left,
When the dark forces controlling the leavers of power brought down the first Government ,
Without a General election Neither FF/FG wanted to face the people Forced Brution to Enter Government With the Democratic Party finishing up give all of there TDs position of Influence From 1994 to 1997, You can trace most of the changes for the good In Ireland back to This Government,

There are forces within FF/FG/LAB which need to be broken UP,
I myself have no time for SF unless FF/FG /LAB change how the treat people we will have SF in Government
Looking at the debate last night it seems the worm is turning after years of silence people are beginning to protest about how they were treated by the main Political parties,
Where do people like myself Who see the unfairness because FG/FF/LAB are afraid to reform the parts of government working against the people,

Just for record I don't buy your line about Unions, Most of the reform needed affecting you and I if you are honest has nothing to do with Unions,

 

[ATC110]

constitutional right to be represented by a Union do you simply suggest that the State simply follows Hitler’s example in outlawing Trade Unions in 1933 and sequestering all their funds ?
Do you foresee a Strike that would render the State ungovernable?

Then change the constitution. Yes, I agree with that 1933 policy.
Public Sector Unions are the enemy of the people, the real subversives undermining the viability and independence of the state. Every time there is an exchequer surplus it is subsumed in to PS pay (ergo if the Apple $13B is ever released ), in a militant belligerent way discommoding the public most detructively, rather than being invested in service delivery which is the raison d'etre of the PS . If there's no surplus they incessantly demand more money regardless so the National Debt increases; they don't care whether the state can afford it or not.

When the only guarantees in the public service are that the wages of its employees are paid whether the actual service is delivered or not there's a serious problem; it's purpose is not to pay wages.

The public generally support public sector employees because they are largely ignorant of their job security, wealth and the daily cost to the taxpayer culminating in the two-thirds stipend for their DB pensions. Also, the PS is so large that everyone is directly/indirectly connected to a PS employee so it's seen as an attack on 'us' to critique the PS; easier to attack 'them', the 158 TDs, the cost of the latter being fiscally insignificant.

 

[Purple]

At110
All of my family work in the private sector, It upsets me how the heading of your post only mentions Public servants REFORM
Government REFORM and the closing all Pension loopholes,
Google
Pension 370000,
There is a lot more tax Foregoing loopholes costing the Taxpayers,billions so far and no service provided,
The public servant they served us well up to there retirement,

I find your posts really hard to read. The punctuation, when present, is in the wrong places. There are capital letters everywhere and there is no structure.
You keep telling people to Google "Pension 370000". Why not post the details of what you are trying to say here? It is a discussion forum after all.

"The public servant they served us well up to there retirement," Are you related to Yoda?

To be clear; whatever loopholes there are in private sector pensions the abyss the state is facing is the cost of unfunded State pensions over the coming decades. They will suck up more and more of our current expenditure until the State is bankrupt again.