PTSB transfers to Raisin & Trade Republic "lost"

Cooler_box said:
Investigations are still ongoing. Money was lost between CitiBank and Raisin. I’m now questioning the validity of the OBPAY transaction reference codes supplied by CitiBank confirming monies were sent if Raisin Bank can deny receiving it. It’s coming up to 7 weeks and it’s clear to me that no one wants to take responsibility for refunding the lost money. Had I been in a hostage situation and my life depended on the money being paid on time, I would be dead while the Banks play the blame game.
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This is totally unacceptable that the customer is left without their money because of an issue in the banking plumbing. The sending bank (PTSB) should have long since refunded you and sorted out the issue with Citi/Raisin themselves.

I wonder if Citi are the common denominator between all the issues and something is going wrong there. Maybe the CBI need to investigate what is going on at Citi.
 
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Lightning said:
I wonder if Citi are the common denominator between all the issues and something is going wrong there. Maybe the CBI need to investigate what is going on at Citi.
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It would appear to be the case. I requested PTSB to ask CitiBank to refund the money while they sort it out with Raisin. I have other pressing issues to attend to and don't relish the prospect of embarking on another merry-go-round with CitiBank.
 
Cooler_box said:
embarking on another merry-go-round with CitiBank.
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You're not a customer of Citi, so I can't see why you would engage with them. It's PTSBs responsibility to resolve this.

The Central Bank makes a distinction between a 'complaint' and an 'error' in the Consumer Protection Code. This sounds very much like a error, which brings much closer scrutiny from central bank. But they need to be told about it.
 
RedOnion said:
The Central Bank makes a distinction between a 'complaint' and an 'error' in the Consumer Protection Code. This sounds very much like a error, which brings much closer scrutiny from central bank. But they need to be told about it.
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PTSB sent me a transcript of all the transfers. All indicate 'no error' and yet Raisin Bank is denying they received the money. I called the CBI this afternoon and spoke to one of their agents: I am not reassured. Opening up a Complaint with them can take up to 40 days to resolve. If it's not resolved "to my satisfaction", they refer you to the FSPO. I know from experience, that if the FSPO are involved, it will drag on for years. CBI have—to use their exact words— no legal control over the Banks, they can only make them comply with regulations. Will it make any difference, or will waste another 40 days before I am passed down the 'food chain'?
 
Cooler_box said:
Do you know of any cases which were resolved successfully by the CBI without going to the FSPO?
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It doesn't have to get to either FSPO or CBI.

Thousands of complaints are resolved every year to the satisfaction of customers.
My point is, if its not formally logged, it's not measured. If its not measured, it's not a priority. Every bank has to report on their complaints, and patterns of unresolved complaints get attention from the Central Bank.

And yes, I have seen 'errors' go straight to CBI without ever crossing FSPOs radar. Again, the bank has an obligation to report errors to CBI.
 
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RedOnion said:
My point is, if its not formally logged, it's not measured. If its not measured, it's not a priority. Every bank has to report on their complaints, and patterns of unresolved complaints get attention from the Central Bank.
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I have formally lodged my complaint with the PTSB if that's what you mean. I also wrote to the CEO who passed my email on to the Head of the Payments Department. He assured me that their team will do all they can to bring the matter to a satisfactory closure. Fingers crossed.
 
@Cooler_box - You seem to be implying that you think reporting this error to the CBI is going to delay the resolution. That should not be the case. The CBI investigation will occur concurrently with PTSB/Citi/Raisin (slowly) trying to fix this for you. It is possible that reporting this to the CBI will actually speed it up once PTSB and Citi and Raisin know that the CBI are on the case. I would suggest that you go ahead and log an error complaint with the CBI against PTSB, Citi and Raisin.
 
Lightning said:
It is possible that reporting this to the CBI will actually speed it up once PTSB and Citi and Raisin know that the CBI are on the case.
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This is the key point.

Logging the complaint with the CBI and sending a copy of it to PTSB will get PTSB to take the complaint seriously.

The CBI will not respond to you on the complaint other than to say "We do not deal with complaints. Go to the Ombudsman."

So your letter should be along the lines of...

"Dear CBI
I know that you do not investigate complaints from individuals as that is the role of the Ombudsman.

However, I would like to draw this issue to your attention as it suggests that there is a systemic issue with ptsb and/or Citi.

As it is a serious error, it is important that they fulfil their obligations and report it to you.

It has taken 7 weeks so far and no sign of my money. This damages public confidence in the banking system. "

Brendan
 
Lightning said:
You seem to be implying that you think reporting this error to the CBI is going to delay the resolution. That should not be the case.
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Yes. I’m afraid so. I was concerned that if I lodge a complaint with CBI at this juncture, PTSB may default to a position where they feel they have no further obligation to assist me and that I could find myself waiting a great deal longer for this to be resolved. I didn’t fully understand Red Onion’s suggestion to bring the Bank’s ‘error’ to CBI’s attention. I wasn’t sure what ‘error’ he was alluding to. Brendan’s post has clarified this for me. The only question now is to whom specifically in PTSB, CitBank and Raisin do I cc in my email to CBI?
Thank you All for your kind support and suggestions: RedOnion, Lightening and Brendan
 
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Once again it is a case of banks treating customers as stupid. Its 7 weeks and three banks between them couldn't come up with a proper explanation for the customer. There could well be a very valid reason or genuine mistake outside all the banks control but no attempt is made to explain it properly. All the customer gets is holding letters.
The industry really doesn't help itself when things like this happen. And then they wonder why people don't trust them or wonder if something bigger is going on.
 
Update:
It’s clear from an hour-long chat with PTSB Manager on Friday, that the money was lost between CitiBank and Raisin. As Raisin Bank has denied receiving the funds, I question the validity/legitimacy of the OBPAY reference codes CitiBank supplied. They don't appear to constitute irrefutable evidence that CitiBank transferred the funds or that Raisin received them!

Interestingly, I read that while these reference numbers are necessary for record-keeping and reconciliation purposes, they may not guarantee that the recipient bank will acknowledge receipt of the funds. So, how do CitiBank prove they transferred the funds? It would appear that there is no communication with both the sending and recipient banks to ensure the smooth processing of the transaction. Given that it's not uncommon for banks to lose money in transit, why would they rely solely on bank transfer reference numbers or codes? How difficult would it be for a sending bank to request direct confirmation from a recipient bank? It boggles the mind to think how easily money can get lost and that it takes them months to trace.
 
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It's the year 2023 and PTSB and Citi and Raisin cannot locate where customers money has gone and 7 weeks have passed. It's beyond shocking. I really hope the CBI come down hard on them all on the back of your complaint.

What did the PTSB manager say to you in the hour long chat about what he was going to do next about this? Did you push the manager to compensate you fully for the lost money that PTSB as the sending bank are responsible for?
 
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PTSB are only responsible for the first interbank transaction.

I don't know about Raisin but TR are using a Citi virtual account scheme at a large scale, what TR/Citi do once they get the money is beyond the scope of what PTSB normally need to care about.

It's not too different from you sending money to someone's account and it working, but they move the money to another account and that doesn't work - in most cases you'd be saying that's not your problem. Here it is your problem as you own the accounts on both ends.

I would not be surprised if soon Irish banks will be telling customers they're on their own with transfers to the likes of TR.
They will not be happy having to step in and try to do some of the customer support that TR or Raisin aren't doing.

Based on the posts it's not easy to currently describe TR as instant access - if I'd 50k in there I'd be nervous withdrawing it one transfer, and if a lot of their customers feel safer making small tranactions it only puts more stress on their systems.
 
Would you consider contacting Conor Pope, Irish Times? A bit of media attention might help to resolve the matter.
 
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ashambles said:
PTSB are only responsible for the first interbank transaction.
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"EU legislation states that it is the responsibility of the sending bank to trace - and if necessary, re-issue - a payment that doesn't arrive at the receiving bank." https://www.theguardian.com/money/2004/aug/24/consumernews.consumeraffairs1

ashambles said:
I would not be surprised if soon Irish banks will be telling customers they're on their own with transfers to the likes of TR.
They will not be happy having to step in and try to do some of the customer support that TR or Raisin aren't doing.
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They can't do that. The ECB and CBI would not allow banks to leave customers on their own with transfers to other EU banks.
 
Lightning said:
"EU legislation states that it is the responsibility of the sending bank to trace - and if necessary, re-issue - a payment that doesn't arrive at the receiving bank." https://www.theguardian.com/money/2004/aug/24/consumernews.consumeraffairs1



They can't do that. The ECB and CBI would not allow banks to leave customers on their own with transfers to other EU banks.
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In SerenaZ's case it seems PTSB could confirm the money arrived in Citi but TR never got notified by Citi. So PTSB did trace and confirm the payment arrived at the recieving bank - which from PTSB's point of view is Citi - not TR.

It didn't get to its final destination - but is that PTSB's problem? They were asked to send it to Citi - and they can show they did.

It seems to me getting money to and from TR is not a straightforward single transfer. I'd also assume that if it seems the money landed in the correct account from PTSB's point of view - they're done.
 
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