Private schools (hidden extra fees)

Firefly said:
I think there are 3 pieces to the puzzle....home, school & peers. The school will largely determine the peers, so if responsible parents who encourage education at home pick the right school, they really have the main bases covered. Of course, you can only bring a horse to water and if the kid has no interest whatsoever in school then it won't matter a jot...but at least as a parent can say you did your bit!
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I'm learning fast on the subject and I feel it is a pity this forum wasn't live when ours started school. "Three pieces to the puzzle . . . home school and peers." And I'd have some difficulty arguing the points with Firefly and I'd lose the debate handsomely. But, I'm having a Detective Colombo moment (minus the cigar and trench coat). Would I be right in saying?:- If we had (a) Good learning home environment (b) Teachers in school doing their job properly (c) All students buying into acquiring good education standards that now there would be no need for private schools, no need for grinds etc
 
Leper said:
I'm learning fast on the subject and I feel it is a pity this forum wasn't live when ours started school. "Three pieces to the puzzle . . . home school and peers." And I'd have some difficulty arguing the points with Firefly and I'd lose the debate handsomely. But, I'm having a Detective Colombo moment (minus the cigar and trench coat). Would I be right in saying?:- If we had (a) Good learning home environment (b) Teachers in school doing their job properly (c) All students buying into acquiring good education standards that now there would be no need for private schools, no need for grinds etc
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I think you would always have private schools and grinds but they wouldn't have 1/2 the demand for them.
 
Firefly said:
The teachers may come from the same pool but in disadvantaged areas they have to deal with larger class sizes as well the difficulties kids from disadvantaged areas can typically face. The Deis program is trying to address some of these issues, but compared to going to a private school, a kid who does well coming from a disadvantaged area deserves more credit in my opinion.
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It's not an either or, a private school or a disadvantaged school. Most secondary schools are just normal, so it doesn't apply to the majority of most kids. But for a kid who goes to a disadvantaged school and disadvantaged background, they have so much more to battle against than just sitting the Leaving Cert, so in those circumstances I would agree.
 
Some interesting thoughts from S Barrett although I'm wondering what is meant by "Most secondary schools are just normal, . . ." Does normal mean a school with some good teachers and not so good teachers? Are all teachers in private schools more dynamic in their approach to educating students?

Firefly thinks we "would always have private schools and grinds" - But, if all teachers were doing their jobs properly, surely we wouldn't need private schools and grinds? Anything else suggests that the teaching fraternity have lots to lose by doing the job properly.
 
Leper said:
Firefly thinks we "would always have private schools and grinds" - But, if all teachers were doing their jobs properly, surely we wouldn't need private schools and grinds? Anything else suggests that the teaching fraternity have lots to lose by doing the job properly.
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I think it's less to do with the quality of the teaching to be honest. A teacher will try to bring the class on as a whole. A weak student may still want grinds to pass but a strong student may want grinds to get a course with very high points.
 
SBarrett said:
Most secondary schools are just normal, so it doesn't apply to the majority of most kids.
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Instead of trying to teach a class of 30, the teacher in a private school will only have to teach to a class of 20 or so. The same kid, from the same family, putting in the same effort would expect to do better in a smaller class would they not?
 
Firefly said:
Instead of trying to teach a class of 30, the teacher in a private school will only have to teach to a class of 20 or so. The same kid, from the same family, putting in the same effort would expect to do better in a smaller class would they not?
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In the private school I attended, class sizes were minimum 30
 
Firefly said:
Instead of trying to teach a class of 30, the teacher in a private school will only have to teach to a class of 20 or so. The same kid, from the same family, putting in the same effort would expect to do better in a smaller class would they not?
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Little to no evidence that class sizes matter.

Everyone forgets the biggest factor influencing outcomes is not teacher quality, or home life, or school resources but the IQ of the students.

Much of that is set in the womb, if not at conception.
 
Everyone forgets the biggest factor influencing outcomes is not teacher quality, or home life, or school resources but the IQ of the students.
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On the contrary, research would indicate that IQ is towards the bottom of the list.
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
Everyone forgets the biggest factor influencing outcomes is not teacher quality, or home life, or school resources but the IQ of the students.
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Even if that were true, my point was made in reference to taking the same kid into a larger vs smaller class.
 
Thirsty said:
On the contrary, research would indicate that IQ is towards the bottom of the list.
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You have two classes of students at the start of the year. One has an average IQ of 120, the other 80.

Assign a bad teacher to the high-IQ class and a good one to the low-IQ class.

Which one will get better grades at the end of the year?
 
Which one will get better grades at the end of the year?
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a. 'Average' IQ is set at 100.
b. An IQ of 120 is considered above average.
c. An IQ of 80 would be considered to be someone with a learning difficulty.

Leaving that aside, a pupil with good parental support will do well.
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
It is true.

Also, little to no evidence that class sizes make a difference.
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Will the student with an IQ of 110 and is dyslexic who had parents who are both teachers and attends a good school in a middle-income area do better than a student with an IQ 120 and is dyslexic who had parents who both left school functionally illiterate and have addiction issues and attends a school in a lower-income area? I think we all know the answer.
 
Grade or academic achievement is a narrow definition of what secondary school can be.

A private school can offer more in the area of extra-curricular or co-curricular activities. The school my son attended ran plays, a musical and an a wind band. And that's in addition to field games. And the voluntary activity in co-operation with Vincent De Paul. Many public schools provide many of these activities, but I guess few many offer as many as fee-paying schools can.

My nephew attended the same school and picked up one instrument for the first time, in first year. He has completed two years in the National Youth Orchestra and is now studying music at third-level. That talent may not have been nurtured in another school.

There was a news item yesterday about a commemorative coin for Philip Lynott. It was hosted by the school he attended in Crumlin and I was struck by the performance of the school orchestra. So an orchestra is not the preserve of the privileged.
 
TarfHead said:
There was a news item yesterday about a commemorative coin for Philip Lynott. It was hosted by the school he attended in Crumlin and I was struck by the performance of the school orchestra
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Yes, but the average age of the school orchestra members is 26 because they’ve stayed back so many times, so I wouldn’t give them too much credit!
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
You have two classes of students at the start of the year. One has an average IQ of 120, the other 80.

Assign a bad teacher to the high-IQ class and a good one to the low-IQ class.

Which one will get better grades at the end of the year?
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The point about learning difficulties was made above. But I'd also add that IQ probably has less impact on grades in Junior and Leaving cycles. They aren't IQ tests. Practical work and exam / study strategy has a much greater effect. And an engaged / enthusiastic teacher (public or private) will help a lot with that. And in fact, the more recent public schools often have a younger teaching base and can be more engaged.

The advantage of a private school isn't really the quality of teachers - they have all been through the same training and are interchangeable (many young teachers on part time or temporary contracts will interchange between public and private schools) - but it is often seen in the choice of subjects and the potential to do more specialist subjects. A private school will often have more "teachers per pupil" numbers but that doesn't mean small classes for the main subjects but may mean some subjects will be supported which may not have large classes. And in doing that, they may help kids find subjects that engage them (my daughter did Classics for the leaving as an example)

Additional extra-curricular work (i.e. grinds) will always have a function in a system with an emphasis on a single examination at the end of the cycle which determines entry into 3rd level. Whether as assistance to help students who are weak, students who need to hit above average grades or even as a reassurance mechanism (this was the case for me I think). There are negatives to the Leaving Cert and the clearing system that is the CAO but I have a lot of exposure to the US and UK systems where it isn't anonymous and there are application forms and interviews for each University and I have to say I think that is a much more biased system (did your parents go the college, what is your background, decisions made on non-defined criteria etc) - and there are the equivalent of grinds there to assist in SAT scores but also to assist on application process.

All systems have pros and cons - but overall, if a student is of reasonable / average ability and there is a sense of expectation at home (doesn't have to be overly manic about it) they will probably be fine no matter which school they go to. I would emphasise the extra-curricular side f things though. It provides structure and gives them a purpose. And if a public school didn't have a lot of these, there are other ways of adding that to the mix - local clubs and societies can provide that if the school didn't
 
EmmDee said:
The point about learning difficulties was made above. But I'd also add that IQ probably has less impact on grades in Junior and Leaving cycles. They aren't IQ tests. Practical work and exam / study strategy has a much greater effect. And an engaged / enthusiastic teacher (public or private) will help a lot with that. And in fact, the more recent public schools often have a younger teaching base and can be more engaged.
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The Leaving Cert is more a test of how good your memory is than what your IQ is.
 
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