Prime Time will have a programme on charities including Peter McVerry tonight

[Peanuts20]

I'm not sure what you mean by "quango" in this context. Are all of the 11,500 charities that are not established by the state quangos? If not, what's the distiction between a quango charity and a non-quango charity?

Very simple, a quango is Govt owned, a non quango isn't. So Trocaire, as a case in point, would be a non-quango, HSE would be Govt owned

I get "owned" may be the wrong word here but it's the old "if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck test". If it looks like it is Govt controlled etc etc, then let the C&AG take oversight, not the Charity Regulator.

 

[Purple]

There are benefits to having a variety of providers of social and health care.

The NESC. That's a great example. They cost the State around €2.5 million a year. They have 18 full-time employees. By what metric is their value for money measured?

 

[Purple]

I suspect every AHB, most primary schools (excl. ETB) and many secondary schools (excl. ETB) is a registered charity.

None of them were established by the State.

They are all funded by the State though, and that's what matters.

 

[Marsupial]

The NESC. That's a great example. They cost the State around €2.5 million a year. They have 18 full-time employees. By what metric is their value for money measured?

The NESC is a very convenient catch-all Body to put all of the 'social-partnership' lobby groups into. If it wasn't there, then they'd probably have to invent it! Have a look at its membership, then ask yourself how on earth Ireland would manage without it.

 

[T McGibney]

29 members on NESC's Council.

The meetings must be hell.

 

[Purple]

Have a look at its membership, then ask yourself how on earth Ireland would manage without it.

Any organisation that listens to Sean Healy shouldn't be listened to.
Any organisation that has him on their board should be ignored completely.

 

[Purple]

29 members on NESC's Council.

The meetings must be hell.

I'd absolutely love to be a member. They'd get rid of me within a week but my god, what a week that would be.

 

[Marsupial]

It appears that he (finally!) retired 2 years ago! https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-41090227.html

 

[Marsupial]

I'd absolutely love to be a member. They'd get rid of me within a week but my god, what a week that would be.

If you ask him very nicely, maybe Brendan could arrange to have you nominated.

 

[Dr Strangelove]

If it wasn't there, then they'd probably have to invent it!

A wise man (and former NESC Council member) once told me that NESC was the perfect forum for all these people to let off steam in the one place so that they wouldn't be going around annoying useful people instead.

 

[Purple]

A wise man (and former NESC Council member) once told me that NESC was the perfect forum for all these people to let off steam in the one place so that they wouldn't be going around annoying useful people instead.

Probably €2.5 million well spent so.

 

[TomEdison]

IK

Very simple, a quango is Govt owned, a non quango isn't. So Trocaire, as a case in point, would be a non-quango, HSE would be Govt owned

I get "owned" may be the wrong word here but it's the old "if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck test". If it looks like it is Govt controlled etc etc, then let the C&AG take oversight, not the Charity Regulator.

OK, thanks. Quangos in that sense may or may not be registered as charities (depending on whether their purpose is charitable) but, charitable or not, they are all already subject to audit, etc, by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

 

[Dr Strangelove]

they are all already subject to audit, etc, by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

Not necessarily. The threshold for audit depends on what percentage of the charity’s revenue is from the government.

 

[Towger]

The Auditor General cannot be everywhere at the same time. Issues can and do go on for years before the AG discovers them. And then there are those never discovered.

 

[TomEdison]

Not necessarily. The threshold for audit depends on what percentage of the charity’s revenue is from the government.

As far as I can see "charity" in this context is a bit of a red herring. The C&AG's responsibility for the audit of semi-state bodies does not depend on whether or not they are charitable, or are registered as charities.

I wasn't aware that the C&AG's responsibility for semi-states/quangos was subject to a threshhold. Do you happen to know what the threshhold is?

(At a guess, the threshhold will depend on the amount of public money an agency receives, rather than on the agency's overall budget or size.)

The Auditor General cannot be everywhere at the same time. Issues can and do go on for years before the AG discovers them. And then there are those never discovered.

The C&AG is an agency, not a single person. There's about 180-200 full-time equivalent posts in the office.

Yes, the C&AG can't be omniscient or perfect. The same, obviously, is true of private sector auditors. But I think the C&AG process is more robust, or at least more extensive, that the audit process that a private company is required to go through. In addition to the standard financial audit (which seeks to answer the question "Do the accounts show a true and fair view of the income, expenditure and financial position of the body being audited?"), the C&AG can conduct value-for-money examinations of an agency (economy and efficiency of operations, adequacy of management systems, etc) and can report to the Oireachtas on "any general matters arising" from an audit or an examination.

(Private sector sector auditors and consultants can of course also conduct value-for-money examinations of a company, but will only do so if asked to by the company itself. The C&AG can act on his own initiative, or at the direction of the Oireachtas.)

 

[Dr Strangelove]

The C&AG is an agency, not a single person.

It is a single person! He’s a constitutional office holder. The Office reports to him.

I wasn't aware that the C&AG's responsibility for semi-states/quangos was subject to a threshhold.

AFAIK it’s 50%.

 

[TomEdison]

It is a single person! He’s a constitutional office holder. The Office reports to him.

Yes, I know, but he's not personally responsible for conducting all the audits and examinations. There's a staff of a couple of hundred employed to do the work.

 

[Dr Strangelove]

Yes, I know, but he's not personally responsible for conducting all the audits and examinations.

Indeed but reports are issued in his sole name.

There is no collective responsibility for his findings it is fully on his shoulders.

 

[TomEdison]

Sure. But if the issue is "Does the C&AG have the resources to audit the agencies we think he should audit?", the 190-odd staff are a material consideration.

 

[Marsupial]

... the issue is "Does the C&AG have the resources to audit the agencies we think he should audit?", the 190-odd staff are a material consideration.

They certainly are. Late last year, RTE was added to the C&AG's portfolio*. The C&AG already audits the finances of almost 300 public bodies, excluding the local authorities and commercial semi-State bodies.

With annual revenues of some €350m, allied to its political significance, it's a high profile job, so I hope that his office will be assigned whatever additional resources may be required to carry it out effectively.

* At least I think it was, unless the General Election intervened.