Primary School Teacher shortage

[Purple]

I'm not sure what exactly you've 'shown to be incorrect' by restating your own opinions on some things.

I've shown that you are factually incorrect about our spend per capita on health services and where we rank in the OECD.
I've pointed out that GDP is a bogus measure against which to compare relative spending on healthcare.
I've shown that our spending has been above the OECD average for close to 3 decades, despite your ascertain that,

If you want to look at the broader issue of HSE funding, you need to look back over the past 20 or 30 years. You don't fix the problems caused by decades of underfunding with a couple of years of reasonable funding.

That is completely incorrect.
Them ain't opinions. Them's the facts.

I'm a bit shook that you're struggling with the concept of 'small government' though

Another Strawman argument. Where did I say I didn't understand the concept of small government? I understand the concept and I'm not a fan of it. If anything our Public Sector is too small relative to the size of our economy. My problem is with the structural and personal incompetence and lack of accountability and sanction within the State Sector.

Now, yet again, can you answer the following;
Can you acknowledge that your views on OECD healthcare spending have been shown to be completely incorrect?
Can you clarify who the "Traditional Right" are?
Can you acknowledge that "Employers" are not a homogenous group?

Well yes, I am serious.

Wow.


So what's your opinion on the Health Service?
Do you think that it is under funded as the unions claim?
Do you think that work practices are as they should be?
Do you think that medical staff and nurses are underpaid as their unions claim?
If you think everything is not as it should be do you think the HSE has some culpability for that and, most importantly, who do you think the HSE is? Is it the 120,000 or so people who work in it or is it some abstract body?

If all is not as it should be do you think those with the power to make change and resist change are culpable? If so do you acknowledge that the State, the Management and the Unions are the main players in that context and to a lesser or greater extent share the blame and the credit for what is bad and good within the system?


See I think it requires the positive and proactive engagement of each party to improve things and all I have heard from family and friends who work in the healthcare industry is that there is a destructive and confrontational culture and the Unions are the main driver of that.

 

[RetirementPlan]

I've shown that you are factually incorrect about our spend per capita on health services and where we rank in the OECD.
I've pointed out that GDP is a bogus measure against which to compare relative spending on healthcare.
I've shown that our spending has been above the OECD average for close to 3 decades, despite your ascertain that,

That is completely incorrect.
Them ain't opinions. Them's the facts.


Another Strawman argument. Where did I say I didn't understand the concept of small government? I understand the concept and I'm not a fan of it. If anything our Public Sector is too small relative to the size of our economy. My problem is with the structural and personal incompetence and lack of accountability and sanction within the State Sector.

Now, yet again, can you answer the following;
Can you acknowledge that your views on OECD healthcare spending have been shown to be completely incorrect?
Can you clarify who the "Traditional Right" are?
Can you acknowledge that "Employers" are not a homogenous group?


Wow.


So what's your opinion on the Health Service?
Do you think that it is under funded as the unions claim?
Do you think that work practices are as they should be?
Do you think that medical staff and nurses are underpaid as their unions claim?
If you think everything is not as it should be do you think the HSE has some culpability for that and, most importantly, who do you think the HSE is? Is it the 120,000 or so people who work in it or is it some abstract body?

If all is not as it should be do you think those with the power to make change and resist change are culpable? If so do you acknowledge that the State, the Management and the Unions are the main players in that context and to a lesser or greater extent share the blame and the credit for what is bad and good within the system?


See I think it requires the positive and proactive engagement of each party to improve things and all I have heard from family and friends who work in the healthcare industry is that there is a destructive and confrontational culture and the Unions are the main driver of that.

Yet again, you seem to confuse your own opinions with definitive facts. Your statement of something does not necessarily make that thing true.

If you look at historical spending, we were waaaaaaaaay behind our peers for many years, and have only just started catching up.


Source: [broken link removed]

We've had a shortage of doctors, and we've failed to keep many of those that we do train.

It's really quite funny that you conjure up stories about what happened in Waterford that were based purely on your own assumptions and then want to nitpick on every phrase or sentence that I've posted? Life's too short, but feel free to keep blaming to bogeyman trade union if you wish, but you really should have something more than 'my family and friends told me' if this is a real issue.

 

[Purple]

Yet again, you seem to confuse your own opinions with definitive facts. Your statement of something does not necessarily make that thing true.

If you look at historical spending, we were waaaaaaaaay behind our peers for many years, and have only just started catching up.
View attachment 5954

Source: [broken link removed]

We've had a shortage of doctors, and we've failed to keep many of those that we do train.

It's really quite funny that you conjure up stories about what happened in Waterford that were based purely on your own assumptions and then want to nitpick on every phrase or sentence that I've posted? Life's too short, but feel free to keep blaming to bogeyman trade union if you wish, but you really should have something more than 'my family and friends told me' if this is a real issue.

Despite the number of times I’ve pointed it out you’re still quoting spending as a proportion of GDP. That’s very disappointing.
We train more doctors per capita than any other country in the world. We have a lucrative industry training doctors for other countries. When they finish training they aren’t leaving, they are going home.

 

[RetirementPlan]

Despite the number of times I’ve pointed it out you’re still quoting spending as a proportion of GDP. That’s very disappointing.
We train more doctors per capita than any other country in the world. We have a lucrative industry training doctors for other countries. When they finish training they aren’t leaving, they are going home.

No GDP factors in those figures, just plain old per-capita spend show how far behind our peers we were for decades. While we've largely closed that gap how, we haven't don't anything to cover the years of underspending, so we can't be surprised when we're way behind on ICU beds and other facilities that require a long-term commitment to training and development.

We do indeed train a lot of doctors from overseas, about half of our med students at present. But research on Irish med students shows considerable numbers planning on heading off, largely because of frustration with working hours, working conditions, salary and development opportunities.

http://www.rcsismj.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/ChalikondaL-Emigration.pdf

 

[Purple]

No GDP factors in those figures, just plain old per-capita spend show how far behind our peers we were for decades. While we've largely closed that gap how, we haven't don't anything to cover the years of underspending, so we can't be surprised when we're way behind on ICU beds and other facilities that require a long-term commitment to training and development.

You quoted spending per capita as a proportion of GDP. Our spending in euro terms is amongst the highest in the world and has been for 3 decades. How much longer can historical underfunding be used as an excuse by the inept?

We do indeed train a lot of doctors from overseas, about half of our med students at present. But research on Irish med students shows considerable numbers planning on heading off, largely because of frustration with working hours, working conditions, salary and development opportunities.

View attachment 5961

http://www.rcsismj.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/ChalikondaL-Emigration.pdf

I’ve never claimed that we have good working conditions for medical or nursing employees in our public health system. In fact I’m strongly of the opinion that structural ineptitude leads to bad working conditions, frustration, stress and a general lack of meritocratic advancement, which in turn perpetuate that structural ineptitude. I think much of the pay pressure is an attempt to compensate for that but I’d prefer to fix the problems rather that pay people more to have to put up with them.

 

[RetirementPlan]

You quoted spending per capita as a proportion of GDP. Our spending in euro terms is amongst the highest in the world and has been for 3 decades. How much longer can historical underfunding be used as an excuse by the inept?

I’ve never claimed that we have good working conditions for medical or nursing employees in our public health system. In fact I’m strongly of the opinion that structural ineptitude leads to bad working conditions, frustration, stress and a general lack of meritocratic advancement, which in turn perpetuate that structural ineptitude. I think much of the pay pressure is an attempt to compensate for that but I’d prefer to fix the problems rather that pay people more to have to put up with them.

I quoted spending per capita, and the considerable historical gap with our spend per capita vs Germany and Netherlands as shown above - no GDP proportion there.

I'd broadly agree with you about fixing the structural issues that push people away to other countries. The working hours for junior doctors are still crazy, which has got to be a patient safety issue along with a HR issue. The six-month contracts seem crazy as an outsider too, having them jumping around the country with no continuity, and hugely reliant on the goodwill of consultants to get their next post. I've heard that non-Irish doctors have serious difficulties getting consultant posts here. I know of one family that left Ireland solely for that reason.

 

[Purple]

I've heard that non-Irish doctors have serious difficulties getting consultant posts here. I know of one family that left Ireland solely for that reason.

A friends father is now a Consultant Heart Surgeon in a major London hospital. He spent 15 years here trying to get a promotion but he’s from Iraq (a Christian though) and didn’t go to the right school or know the right people. He was in London less than 2 years when he got that promotion. Will giving everyone a pay rise fix that? Are we really short of people to fill that open consultant jobs or are we short of white people to fill them? Given the stories we’ve both heard, unproven though they are (had to get proof for that sort of thing), would a competent young doctor want to work here? She’d pay half her income in taxes and still couldn’t afford a decent house and shed know she wasn’t the right sort when the sweeties were being handed out. What extra resources would fix that?