Primary School Teacher shortage

[Peanuts20]

Not quite consigned to history just yet - ups and downs, typically in reverse direction to economic growth cycles
From https://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Relations/Countries/Ireland/Trade-Unions

true, but the majority of major employers in Ireland in the Private sector don't negotiate with Trade unions so don't expect an upturn in membership if there is a downturn. . Unions are in danger of going the same way as Fianna Fail and fading into oblivion in Ireland

 

[Purple]

View attachment 5925
Coulda fooled me.

There's none so blind as those who will not see.

 

[Purple]

I'm just thinking if that post was discussed in any hospital, ATC110 would be laughed out of the site.

Yea, they aren't good with facts and data, those folks.
The fact is that we have one of the bet funded healthcare systems in the world. It's just really badly organised and really badly run. It's semi-connected silos, massive duplication of process and a very large cohort of employees at every level who are unwilling and/or unable to change. The problems with the Health Service are mostly due to the people who work in it, but certainly aren't caused by lack of resources. They are caused by the misallocation of resources due to the structures within the system. The only people who can fix that are the people who work there. Sorry about that but facts and heroes usually don't mix well.

 

[ATC110]

It's a long time since I've seen anybody beat Purple for anti trade union sentiment, but ATC110 wins that race easily. I'm just thinking if that post was discussed in any hospital, ATC110 would be laughed out of the site.

There is a case for trade union representation in the private sector as it’s for-profit and there is much less employee protection.

There is no “profit pot” in the public sector which some avaricious employer wants to keep for themselves; pay increases are just added to the national debt or diverted from the service delivery budget.
The public service is just that, not some self-serving cosseted club, which the unions have made it.
As for being “laughed out of the site”, is that supposed to be surprising..the unionised rabble are hardly going to start working in the location they’re needed or start providing services when they’re needed rather than when it suits them.

 

[RetirementPlan]

It doesn't work like that. The HSE is more than adequately funded, it's poorly functioning due to union mendacity.

When tax receipts increase, the rapacious unions are first in line to get pay increases for their members so the public sees little to no benefit

Let's just go back to the question you asked. I mentioned "employer-led/PD/Renua propoganda" and you responded that "None of those are preventing public service delivery". In fact, the traditional right position of small government is ALL about preventing public service delivery by cutting back on public services. That's the whole thinking being the low tax environment. Cut public services, everyone fends for themselves, survival of the fittest and to hell with those who struggle.

If you want to look at the broader issue of HSE funding, you need to look back over the past 20 or 30 years. You don't fix the problems caused by decades of underfunding with a couple of years of reasonable funding. And you might want to look at service improvements in areas like cancer and stroke treatments before you decide that there was 'little to no benefit'.

 

[Purple]

Let's just go back to the question you asked. I mentioned "employer-led/PD/Renua propoganda" and you responded that "None of those are preventing public service delivery". In fact, the traditional right position of small government is ALL about preventing public service delivery by cutting back on public services.

There is a tendency within much of the Unionised State Sector and pro-Union establishment to lump anyone who questions the value for money we get from that State Sector as some sort of Ayn Rand disciple who is some sort of closet racist Trumpian lunatic. The PD's were social liberal and fiscal conservatives and a world away from Renua.
There are tens of thousands of employers in this country who are from all sorts of backgrounds and hold all sorts of political and social views. Lumping them all in as if 'Employers' were a homogeneous group is intellectually lazy and very inaccurate.
What do you mean by "The traditional right"? Who are they in the Irish context? Are you talking about the Catholic Church? Fine Gael? The Irish Countrywomen's Association? The Calor Kosangas Housewife of the Year committee?

That's the whole thinking being the low tax environment. Cut public services, everyone fends for themselves, survival of the fittest and to hell with those who struggle.

Who is talking about a low tax environment? I have no problem with taxes or the amount I pay, though I'd like to see more of it shift from income generation to wealth retention. I have a problem with the amount of money the State Sector wastes through ineptitude and their self delusion and defensiveness which are barriers to better State services. I hold that view because I want a more inclusive country and I see middle class State Employees sucking up resources which should be used on the poor and vulnerable and it upsets me.

If you want to look at the broader issue of HSE funding, you need to look back over the past 20 or 30 years. You don't fix the problems caused by decades of underfunding with a couple of years of reasonable funding.

We've been spending well above OECD and EU averages for decades. No matter which way you look at it the problem with our healthcare system isn't money and hasn't been for 30 years. The problem is the structures, misallocation of resources and the people who work within that system, at every level, who resist real change.

And you might want to look at service improvements in areas like cancer and stroke treatments before you decide that there was 'little to no benefit'.

That's mainly due to advances in technology.
The Cath Lab in Waterford is a perfect example of what's wrong with the Health Service. The Heroes there were bleating on about how they needed a second lab so the State asked a doctor from the NHS to look at the problem. He said that if they just changed around their rosters a bit there's be loads of capacity. The Heroes refused and now the people of Ireland are building a second one at the cost of millions, with additional millions wasted to run it each year.

 

[RetirementPlan]

There is a tendency within much of the Unionised State Sector and pro-Union establishment to lump anyone who questions the value for money we get from that State Sector as some sort of Ayn Rand disciple who is some sort of closet racist Trumpian lunatic. The PD's were social liberal and fiscal conservatives and a world away from Renua.
There are tens of thousands of employers in this country who are from all sorts of backgrounds and hold all sorts of political and social views. Lumping them all in as if 'Employers' were a homogeneous group is intellectually lazy and very inaccurate.
What do you mean by "The traditional right"? Who are they in the Irish context? Are you talking about the Catholic Church? Fine Gael? The Irish Countrywomen's Association? The Calor Kosangas Housewife of the Year committee?

When you put the same kind of extensive effort into analysing phrases like "public sector union propaganda purposes", then we can start having a useful, constructive discussion on this. Go back and see the context of my question.

Who is talking about a low tax environment? I have no problem with taxes or the amount I pay, though I'd like to see more of it shift from income generation to wealth retention. I have a problem with the amount of money the State Sector wastes through ineptitude and their self delusion and defensiveness which are barriers to better State services. I hold that view because I want a more inclusive country and I see middle class State Employees sucking up resources which should be used on the poor and vulnerable and it upsets me.

I was talking about a low-tax environment when I mentioned PD / Renua approach. We all have our own views, some of them are even based on facts, but for the second time, go back and see the context of my answer.

We've been spending well above OECD and EU averages for decades. No matter which way you look at it the problem with our healthcare system isn't money and hasn't been for 30 years. The problem is the structures, misallocation of resources and the people who work within that system, at every level, who resist real change.

Have you any reliable sources for this claim? If you look at this article, he notes;

• Historic underspend: Brian Turner, the UCC health economist, has argued that our healthcare system has been historically underfunded and we are living with the memory of this dis-investment. The under-funding and lack of capital investment in the 1980s and 1990s profoundly impacted the ability of our services to cope with the arrival of modern medicine after the millennium (see Point 2 in the above figure).
• Austerity: Ireland was alone in the EU, in having successive retractions in public healthcare spending in 2012, 2013 and 2014 (see Point 3). This austerity was profoundly damaging to the development of public healthcare services, which we have not recovered from today. Ireland’s hospital bed capacity (total hospital beds per 1,000 inhabitants) was significantly reduced under Professor Brendan Drumm’s tenure as CEO of the HSE from 5.1/ 1,000 in 2008 to 2.8/ 1,000 in 2009. The Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest from 2009 to 2015 subsequently impacted the ability of the community sector to cope. It should be no surprise to realise why we are having difficulty in healthcare capacity now.
• We are not the highest spenders: Whilst the average OECD expenditure on healthcare is $4,222 per capita when we look at similar countries, we find that Ireland’s expenditure is probably average (see Point 4).

If you look at this 2015 paper, they note;

After years of expenditure growth barely in line with inflation during the 1980s and early 1990s, expenditure on the health service in Ireland has increased dramatically since 1997, increasing by nearly 80 per cent in real terms from 1997 to 2002. While Irish health expenditure as a proportion of GNP has increased from 7.3 per cent in 1991 to 8.2 per cent in 2001, health expenditure as a proportion of GNP has also risen across the EU and OECD, with the result that Ireland still ranks among the low spenders on health, in terms of health expenditure as a proportion of GNP

So where is this 'well above average spending' set out?

That's mainly due to advances in technology.
The Cath Lab in Waterford is a perfect example of what's wrong with the Health Service. The Heroes there were bleating on about how they needed a second lab so the State asked a doctor from the NHS to look at the problem. He said that if they just changed around their rosters a bit there's be loads of capacity. The Heroes refused and now the people of Ireland are building a second one at the cost of millions, with additional millions wasted to run it each year.

Is your memory playing tricks here? When Niall Herity, the NHS expert presented to the Oireachtas, he said; "It was, and remains, my opinion that expanding the service to provide 24-7 cover is not a sustainable solution.". So where exactly did you get; "Heroes refused" from? Who refused and what trade union was involved?

 

[Purple]

When you put the same kind of extensive effort into analysing phrases like "public sector union propaganda purposes", then we can start having a useful, constructive discussion on this. Go back and see the context of my question.

I have looked at the context of your question. My point remains the same. I didn't talk about every State employee, unlike you who spoke about every employer, I spoke about the propaganda from public sector unions.

I was talking about a low-tax environment when I mentioned PD / Renua approach. We all have our own views, some of them are even based on facts, but for the second time, go back and see the context of my answer.

Again, I have looked at the context of your answer and again my point remains unchanged. The PD's and Renua have very different taxation policies and you spoke about the "traditional right". I ask you again; who are they?

Have you any reliable sources for this claim? If you look at this article, he notes;

The average OECD per capita spend in 2018 was €3,515. Ours was €4,706. The US is a total outlier with a spend of €8,643. See here for details.

The good doctor also claims that "Ireland’s hospital bed capacity (total hospital beds per 1,000 inhabitants) was significantly reduced under Professor Brendan Drumm’s tenure as CEO of the HSE from 5.1/ 1,000 in 2008 to 2.8/ 1,000 in 2009" World Bank data tells us that it changed from 4.85 to 2.83 during that period, still a significant drop, but had moved back up to 2.97 by 2018. Source. The question is, of course, as one of the highest spenders in the world, despite the good Doctors claims otherwise, how come our bed ratio is so low?

If you look at this 2015 paper, they note;

Another piece using GNP as a comparator? Really? We all know that GNI is a much more accurate measure since GNP here is inflated and we don't really have access to much of the wealth measured in the GNP figure. The ERSI certainly know that but the author chooses to misrepresent the truth for some reason we can only speculate about.

So where is this 'well above average spending' set out?

See the Irish Times article I've linked above.

Is your memory playing tricks here? When Niall Herity, the NHS expert presented to the Oireachtas, he said; "It was, and remains, my opinion that expanding the service to provide 24-7 cover is not a sustainable solution.".

From this article;
Mr Halligan, who was at yesterday’s committee meeting, asked Dr Herity if a HSE document had influenced his conclusion that a second cath lab was not needed.

Dr Herity said his findings were “completely independent” and did not reflect any single aspect of that background document he received from the health authority.

“Nobody tried to inappropriately influence the process, and I am happy to have reached the conclusions that I did, and they remain my conclusions.”

Dr Herity’s report, commissioned by the Minister for Health Simon Harris, concludes that patients arriving at the emergency department at UHW suffering from a heart attack should be transferred to Cork University Hospital for treatment, even though the journey by ambulance could take around 90 minutes.

Questioned by Fianna Fáil senator and GP Keith Swanick, Dr Herity said he did not believe lives were endangered and people were dying because of the absence of a second cath lab and a 24/7 cardiac service at UHW.

So where exactly did you get; "Heroes refused" from? Who refused and what trade union was involved?

From this article:
Publishing the review by Belfast-based Dr Niall Herity, the Minister said it recommended some services be provided elsewhere but in order to do this “a number of operational processes would have to first be embedded”.

“However, he also recommends investing in UHW to enhance the existing cardiac services including, increasing the number of weekly sessions currently provided, in order to address waiting times and to provide improved access for patients.”

The Heroes involved refused to change their rosters to increase output from a very expensive State asset so the HSE built them a second one out of the HSE's budget (using money that could, I suppose, have been used to improve that pesky bed ratio) and staffed it with more Heroes. I presume those Heroes were hired on the same basis as the first batch.

 

[RetirementPlan]

I have looked at the context of your question. My point remains the same. I didn't talk about every State employee, unlike you who spoke about every employer, I spoke about the propaganda from public sector unions.

Again, I have looked at the context of your answer and again my point remains unchanged. The PD's and Renua have very different taxation policies and you spoke about the "traditional right". I ask you again; who are they?

The average OECD per capita spend in 2018 was €3,515. Ours was €4,706. The US is a total outlier with a spend of €8,643. See here for details.

The good doctor also claims that "Ireland’s hospital bed capacity (total hospital beds per 1,000 inhabitants) was significantly reduced under Professor Brendan Drumm’s tenure as CEO of the HSE from 5.1/ 1,000 in 2008 to 2.8/ 1,000 in 2009" World Bank data tells us that it changed from 4.85 to 2.83 during that period, still a significant drop, but had moved back up to 2.97 by 2018. Source. The question is, of course, as one of the highest spenders in the world, despite the good Doctors claims otherwise, how come our bed ratio is so low?

Another piece using GNP as a comparator? Really? We all know that GNI is a much more accurate measure since GNP here is inflated and we don't really have access to much of the wealth measured in the GNP figure. The ERSI certainly know that but the author chooses to misrepresent the truth for some reason we can only speculate about.

See the Irish Times article I've linked above.

From this article;
Mr Halligan, who was at yesterday’s committee meeting, asked Dr Herity if a HSE document had influenced his conclusion that a second cath lab was not needed.

Dr Herity said his findings were “completely independent” and did not reflect any single aspect of that background document he received from the health authority.

“Nobody tried to inappropriately influence the process, and I am happy to have reached the conclusions that I did, and they remain my conclusions.”

Dr Herity’s report, commissioned by the Minister for Health Simon Harris, concludes that patients arriving at the emergency department at UHW suffering from a heart attack should be transferred to Cork University Hospital for treatment, even though the journey by ambulance could take around 90 minutes.

Questioned by Fianna Fáil senator and GP Keith Swanick, Dr Herity said he did not believe lives were endangered and people were dying because of the absence of a second cath lab and a 24/7 cardiac service at UHW.

From this article:
Publishing the review by Belfast-based Dr Niall Herity, the Minister said it recommended some services be provided elsewhere but in order to do this “a number of operational processes would have to first be embedded”.

“However, he also recommends investing in UHW to enhance the existing cardiac services including, increasing the number of weekly sessions currently provided, in order to address waiting times and to provide improved access for patients.”

The Heroes involved refused to change their rosters to increase output from a very expensive State asset so the HSE built them a second one out of the HSE's budget (using money that could, I suppose, have been used to improve that pesky bed ratio) and staffed it with more Heroes. I presume those Heroes were hired on the same basis as the first batch.

Did you just repeat the same 'Heroes refused....' claim a second time without attributing it or explaining where you got this detail from?

 

[Purple]

Did you just repeat the same 'Heroes refused....' claim a second time without attributing it or explaining where you got this detail from?

That's the best you can do?
I've addressed the specific questions, showed that you were entirely incorrect about the opinion of the NHS expert, shown that the figures you quoted about spending per capita were wrong, shown that we do in fact spend more than most and shown that the ERSI report you quoted was, at best, totally misleading... and all you can come back with is that? Really?

 

[RetirementPlan]

That's the best you can do?
I've addressed the specific questions, showed that you were entirely incorrect about the opinion of the NHS expert, shown that the figures you quoted about spending per capita were wrong, shown that we do in fact spend more than most and shown that the ERSI report you quoted was, at best, totally misleading... and all you can come back with is that? Really?

It was late last night. I'll address the other issues when I get a chance.

Can you please clarify where you got the idea that 'heroes refused' the new roster, and that a trade union was involved in this?

 

[Purple]

It was late last night. I'll address the other issues when I get a chance.

Can you please clarify where you got the idea that 'heroes refused' the new roster, and that a trade union was involved in this?

Can you address the rest of the issues first?
Edit; here's the actual report.

 

[RetirementPlan]

Can you address the rest of the issues first?
Edit; here's the actual report.

It's starting to look like you made up your claim about 'Heroes refused....'. It's starting to look like there is no trade union bogeyman behind the door on this one.

The only statement I made about Herity's report was a direct quote from himself, so I've no idea how you think I was 'entirely incorrect' about that. The report calls for 12 sessions a week at Waterford, and rules out 24/7 activity there. I can't find details of how many sessions per week were provided at the time, so I'm assuming 12 is an increase of some kind.

But there's certainly nothing in the report, and nothing in the press or Oireachtas proceedings I can find to support your 'Heroes refused....' claim. Did you have an actual source for this?

 

[Purple]

It's starting to look like you made up your claim about 'Heroes refused....'. It's starting to look like there is no trade union bogeyman behind the door on this one.

The only statement I made about Herity's report was a direct quote from himself, so I've no idea how you think I was 'entirely incorrect' about that. The report calls for 12 sessions a week at Waterford, and rules out 24/7 activity there. I can't find details of how many sessions per week were provided at the time, so I'm assuming 12 is an increase of some kind.

But there's certainly nothing in the report, and nothing in the press or Oireachtas proceedings I can find to support your 'Heroes refused....' claim. Did you have an actual source for this?

As I said, please address all the other points you brought up and I showed to be incorrect. Then I'll address this in more detail.

 

[RetirementPlan]

As I said, please address all the other points you brought up and I showed to be incorrect. Then I'll address this in more detail.

So you made it up. Gotcha.

 

[Purple]

So you made it up. Gotcha.

Does that mean you are ignoring the other points?
Can you acknowledge that your views on OECD healthcare spending were completely incorrect?
Can you clarify who the "Traditional Right" are?

Can you acknowledge that the following comment is a baseless Strawman Argument?

the traditional right position of small government is ALL about preventing public service delivery by cutting back on public services. That's the whole thinking being the low tax environment. Cut public services, everyone fends for themselves, survival of the fittest and to hell with those who struggle.

Can you acknowledge that using GDP as a measure against which relative spending of any type is totally misleading and those who do it are either ignorant or have an ideological agenda that they are attempting to further?

It would be useful to also acknowledge that people don't make official statements about their shoddy work practices but since the Cath Lab was working 9-5 and is still working 9-5 it is reasonable to deduct that the suggestion from consultant from the NHS that they work a few more hours a week wasn't followed through on and, as with any Unionised body with access to limitless Public Funds in which there is zero real sanction on the employees, longer hours cannot be worked without employee agreement. Why would they agree when the problem can be solved with another truck load of Public Money?

For the record my first comment on the issue was;

The Cath Lab in Waterford is a perfect example of what's wrong with the Health Service. The Heroes there were bleating on about how they needed a second lab so the State asked a doctor from the NHS to look at the problem. He said that if they just changed around their rosters a bit there's be loads of capacity.

Where did I mention Unions? Unions certainly form and inform the culture of waste, moaning and unaccountability in the Health Service but they aren't directly involved in every decision and inaction that results from the resultant wilful and delusional ineptitude.

 

[RetirementPlan]

Does that mean you are ignoring the other points?
Can you acknowledge that your views on OECD healthcare spending were completely incorrect?
Can you clarify who the "Traditional Right" are?

Can you acknowledge that the following comment is a baseless Strawman Argument?


Can you acknowledge that using GDP as a measure against which relative spending of any type is totally misleading and those who do it are either ignorant or have an ideological agenda that they are attempting to further?

Yes, I am ignoring the other points. I suspect that you're using the other points to either distract from the fundamental issue around the Cath Lab rosters or to play for time while you search for information to support your earlier claims. I might come back to them when I have time. Or I might not. You and others can draw your own conclusions from this.

It would be useful to also acknowledge that people don't make official statements about their shoddy work practices but since the Cath Lab was working 9-5 and is still working 9-5 it is reasonable to deduct that the suggestion from consultant from the NHS that they work a few more hours a week wasn't followed through on and, as with any Unionised body with access to limitless Public Funds in which there is zero real sanction on the employees, longer hours cannot be worked without employee agreement. Why would they agree when the problem can be solved with another truck load of Public Money?

So I was right then, you did literally 'make it up'. You jumped to a conclusion that the only possible party that can be blamed is the staff involved - no possible of question of blaming those who allocate staff resources, for example, or those who allocate the support staff resources necessary to allow departments to operate, or those who provide and support the relevant systems? Let's jump straight in based on no facts and all ideology and blame the staff involved.

Where did I mention Unions? Unions certainly form and inform the culture of waste, moaning and unaccountability in the Health Service but they aren't directly involved in every decision and inaction that results from the resultant wilful and delusional ineptitude.

You mentioned unions when you said; " There are strong Union advocates on this site and there are those, like me, who have no problem with Unions in principle but have an intense dislike of how Unions in the State sector function and the real harm and suffering they cause.". That was the context of the discussion.
So just to be clear, are you blaming unions or not for the possible lack of progress on implementation of the recommendations of the Herity report?

 

[Purple]

Yes, I am ignoring the other points

So you have been shown to be incorrect on the substantive points raised and so you are ignoring them and choosing to go down a rabbit hole about an example I brought up. Well at least you are honest, I'll give you that... brazen even. It doesn't say much for your broader arguments though, does it? You can only make what are frankly ridiculous snipes like the one below rather than actually support your own views.

So just to be clear, are you blaming unions or not for the possible lack of progress on implementation of the recommendations of the Herity report?

The Herity report had been ignored in its totality. The recommendations required changed to work practices. Instead tens of millions have been unnecessarily diverted from patient care so that current work practices could be maintained. You are asking me for documentary evidence that this was the result of the culture within the Health Service. Are you serious?

 

[Purple]

Back on topic, and good news; there is already an over supply of Primary School teachers and that will increase from 13,000 in 2029 to 17,000 by 2036. Class sizes are now at within the optimum size of range at 25. Reducing pupil teacher ratios is extremely expensive as it requires more classrooms. Hiring more classroom assistants is far cheaper and produces better learning outcomes. Source

So, clearly, there's no shortage of qualified teachers. There does seem to be a shortage of qualified teachers who are willing to work as teachers so maybe we need to look at how we select people to train in the sector/vocation/profession/job.

 

[RetirementPlan]

So you have been shown to be incorrect on the substantive points raised and so you are ignoring them and choosing to go down a rabbit hole about an example I brought up. Well at least you are honest, I'll give you that... brazen even. It doesn't say much for your broader arguments though, does it? You can only make what are frankly ridiculous snipes like the one below rather than actually support your own views.

I'm not sure what exactly you've 'shown to be incorrect' by restating your own opinions on some things. Maybe we'll get to tease these out at some stage. I'm a bit shook that you're struggling with the concept of 'small government' though.

The Herity report had been ignored in its totality. The recommendations required changed to work practices. Instead tens of millions have been unnecessarily diverted from patient care so that current work practices could be maintained. You are asking me for documentary evidence that this was the result of the culture within the Health Service. Are you serious?

For the record, I know next to nothing about Waterford, cath labs, Herity and more. I read a few news articles, some Oireachtas proceedings and some of the report. I've absolutely no idea what happened in Waterford. I suspect that you're not too far away from me on knowledge of the situation, but you've jumped to some amazing conclusion about what happened there, and who made what decisions, apparently with zero evidence, zero facts, zero insight. There's a problem there, so we just HAVE to blame the staff (while having a dig at unions) who MUST have refused to change rosters. And any suggestion that it would be helpful to present some facts or evidence to support this hypothesis is met with "are you serious".

Well yes, I am serious. If you're going to dish out blame, you should really have some evidence behind you. It's hard to believe that the situation is as black and white as you suggest, when there is apparently no newspaper articles to support your view, no Oireachtas discussions, PQs or FOIs (on a matter that got a huge amount of attention from local politicials), no opinion pieces from local medics - basically nothing to support your position, except your own blissful certainty that the blame goes in one particular direction, as some apparent matter of faith.