President of Ireland or President of the Republic of Ireland?

Purple said:
He was in 5 political parties. He also grew up in Derry so the Labour man from Waterford label doesn't really stick.
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That says it all you know nothing about the man,
What age was he when he left Derry,,
Then again you could be in your 40 and still be growing up
 
kinnjohn said:
That says it all you know nothing about the man,
What age was he when he left Derry,,
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He left Derry when he was 5 or 6. He was in England after that, where he want to school. He was there until he want to Trinity to study medicine. His formative years were spent in England, then Dublin. His early childhood was spend in Derry.
kinnjohn said:
Then again you could be in your 40 and still be growing up
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I have tried hard all my life never to fully grow up. So far so good.
 
You like leaving gaps I see he went from Waterford to Derry to Athlone to Ballinrobe and then to London when he was 14 years old,
 
Purple said:
I have tried hard all my life never to fully grow up. So far so good.
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Once you keep voting the way you do,
Working the way you do until you are at 70 or more,
Keep paying high taxes to keep retirees like me humming along,
so far so good,
all happy,
 
kinnjohn said:
You like leaving gaps I see he went from Waterford to Derry to Athlone to Ballinrobe and then to London when he was 14 years old,
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Yes, but he left Waterford as a baby, spent his early childhood in Derry and his teenaged years in England, before moving to Dublin.
I'm aware that the family spent some time in Athlone and Mato but you asked what age is was when he left Derry. You didn't ask for a biography. If you did I'd have recommended Against the Tide.
 
kinnjohn said:
Once you keep voting the way you do,
Working the way you do until you are at 70 or more,
Keep paying high taxes to keep retirees like me humming along,
so far so good,
all happy,
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There'll always be freeloaders, it's just one of those costs of civilisation.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
I decided to broaden my mind
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Interesting!


And at the time, I imagine, it was an attempt by the new fledgling Free State to lay down a marker, a political decision - the war is over, partition is here to stay, get used to it.

Of course, regardless of how hard the struggle the GOIRA military effort was against the British Empire, the prospect that the 'Irregulars' found themselves in a minority amongst their own people must have sapped the will out of so many.

And as you point out, the non-application of 'Queensbury rules' was surely the quick and decivise way to deal with those not ready to toe the line.

It's an interesting choice of words I have to say. The concept of playing dirty when needed, especially when its the 'good guys' doing it, and all the more so if you can get away with it.

It is this whitewashing of 'good guy' terrorism in order to direct all attention guilt, blame and shame onto 'bad guy' terrorism that is the perpetual flaw that hinders all peaceful progress.

As Hume and Mallon observed not one injustice against Catholics warranted one death. They would of course include the 14 victims of Bloody Sunday who set out to protest peacefully against those injustices.
 
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@WolfeTone I am saying that the morality of any violation of the fifth commandment should be seen in context. Was the atomic bombing of 80,000 civilians in Hiroshima the biggest terrorist act in human history? Arguably so and also the most successful. Was it more immoral than lining up 10 innocent Protestants and mowing them to death? I won't go down that rabbit hole.
So this is a matter of personal moral compass and for me "Up the 'Ra" triumphalism, and having regard to what the 'Ra have done in my living memory, make them morally unfit for government in this State. That's beside Bertie's argument that their policies make them unfit for government in any case.
Their attempts to justify this Up the 'Ra stance and to glorify their terrorist campaign should be seen as repugnant irrespective of any whataboutery.
 
I've heard the Ra's bombs go off in London so when I heard Martin Ferris telling us all earlier in the week that the guys who did that were not criminals, it makes my blood boil. SF can't have it both ways, they need to own up and come clean. Cold day in hell before I'd vote for them
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
I am saying that the morality of any violation of the fifth commandment should be seen in context.
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I agree.

But allow me to close shut that most probable provocative rabbit hole you casually toss out there in case there be any ambiguity in its inference.
That Hiroshima and Kingsmill can been seen in any comparative context is an absurdity of gigantic proportions.
Kingsmill should of course be seen in the context of a sectarian reprisal for the slaughter of six Catholics in the days before, and not in the context of WWII.

I think it was Stalin who said (and admittedly Im paraphrasing here) , "Killing ten Protestant workmen is a tragedy.
Killing 80,000 Japanese civilians is a strategical strike statistically likley to successfully disable the enemy."

That said, the personal moral compass is after all a fundamental entitlement to every human conscience without prejudice.
I'm sure you will agree?

If you do agree, then as you point the Provo triumphalism is clearly repugnant to you.
I don't contest that from you or anyone else.
And without equivocation I say now, as before, the existence of paramilitaries on this island is a cancer.

Nowadays, the indiscriminate bombers of bridges and child killers is a cause for Presidential gushing and bridge naming.
Sure why not? It was afterall 'a different time', and the Irish Labour Party (in power at time and sanctioning the Presidents speech about Clarke's life) had this to say to say about the blatant and extensive indiscriminate bombing campaign of public bridges and train stations.

_ "he was arrested in London in 1883".

Sin é.

No reason given why. Just a glorification of his exploits before and after that time.

Surely that must make some people's blood boil?
 
@WolfeTone We agree that Kingsmills was about sectarian revenge and Hiroshima was about ending a world war, so that rabbit hole is firmly closed.
Leaving aside all the whataboutery and the ridiculous invoking of Hiroshima (was that me?) would you be comfortable voting for a person or party that celebrates its victory with shouts of "Up the 'Ra"?
 
WolfeTone said:
_ "he was arrested in London in 1883".

Sin é.

No reason given why. Just a glorification of his exploits before and after that time.

Surely that must make some people's blood boil?
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I would have concerns about a leader being elected in Serbia who glorified the war there in the 90's.
I'd be less concerned about a leader in Mongolia who glorified their former Empire when though, by any measure, the Mongol empire did more harm than, well, anyone ever.
Time diminishes the crimes of history. Like gravity it is based on size and proximity. The actions of Clarke are historical. The actions of the IRA are political. They will, if the Shinners let them, become historical.
 
Purple said:
Time diminishes the crimes of history
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No it doesn't. This is the attempted whitewashing. Time diminishes the hurt of the crime for sure, but it does not diminish the crime.
By this reasoning, there is some opaque timeline where a future President of Ireland will be able to gush the praises of those IRA volunteers who killed Johnathon Ball and Tim Parry.

I hope to God there will not ever be.

The indiscriminate bombing of public landmarks was as wrong in 1880's as it is today.
Higgins speech was repulsive. Completely omitting and by-passing the actions of Clarke and IRB by simply saying he was arrested in London in 1883 without stating for what. Lest anyone be wondering what for here is a sample list from Wiki of the gallant activities of the IRB that Clarke was a proud member of.

1881
  • 14 Jan 1881: A bomb exploded at a military barracks in Salford, Lancashire.[1] A young boy was killed[2]
  • 16 Mar 1881: A bomb was found and defused in the Mansion House, London.[1]
  • 5 May 1881: Bomb explodes at Chester Barracks, Chester.[3]
  • 16 May 1881: Bomb attack at Liverpool police barracks.
  • 10 June 1881: Bomb planted at Liverpool Town Hall,[1]
  • 30 June 1881: Disguised explosives found aboard SS Malta at Liverpool.[3]
  • 2 July 1881: Disguised explosives found aboard SS Bavaria in Liverpool.[3]
1882
  • 12 May 1882: A bomb exploded at the Mansion House, London.[1]
1883
  • 20 January 1883: In Glasgow, bombs exploded at Tradeston Gasworks, Possil Road Bridge and Buchanan Street Station. About a dozen people were injured.[1][3]
  • 15 Mar 1883: In London, bombs exploded at government buildings at Whitehall and at the offices of The Times newspaper. There were no injuries.[1]
  • 29 March 1883: Fenians Denis Deasy, Timothy Featherstone and Patsy Flanagan are arrested while police in County Cork raid the homes and businesses of associates of Deasy and Flanagan.[3]
  • 28 May 1883: Future Easter Rising leader Tom Clarke is sentenced to penal servitude for life.[3]
Purple said:
The actions of Clarke are historical. The actions of the IRA are political. They will, if the Shinners let them, become historical.
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It is time the office of the President of Ireland is no longer used by the political class to uphold and affirm the perpetrators of violent actions as a means to achieve their political aims.
Until such time, then all and every political opponent can seek to justify and seek refuge through the gun.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
would you be comfortable voting for a person or party that celebrates its victory with shouts of "Up the 'Ra"?
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No I am not comfortable with it, but neither am I comfortable with the whitewashing of violent actions across the political board.

As I have mentioned before, I witnessed my son take part in mock demonstration of the 1916 rebellion at school. They had one lad read out the Proclamation and a bunch of other kids standing in military poses etc while the baying sheep of parents gushed at the sight of their little ones being bred into the spin of the gallantry of armed rebellion.

I'm saying all of this needs to stop. Ireland needs to recognise that while the principles of pursuing an independent Irish Republic is legitimate, that 1916 was an abject failure, it had no mandate, it led to war, civil war the partition of the country and in no small part is the inspiration of PIRA generation to rise up and use arms.

The people endorsed, overwhelmingly, in 1998, that our political divisions be resolved through peaceful and democratic programs. The 26 county political establishment needs to cop itself on and move into the 21st century leaving the baggage of militarism behind.
 
I have never and will never vote SF but the beauty of their popularity is that they have driven the other major political parties increasingly to the left and given the fact that SF post the next election are likely to be the largest political party in the State it will be brilliant armchair viewing to see which party pre election will endeavour to match SF promises - perhaps they all will ?
I believe that post the next election we will be the most left leaning country in Europe.
 
The country moving left has nothing to do with SF, more got to do with the main political parties failed to reform
They have taxed direct work to feather the nest of other groups, to the point the direct working population no longer have any respect for them,
on one hand, they are losing the support of the direct workers they now have to start taxing the only group of supporters they have left it is not going to be a pretty sight watching their supporters adjust to the new reality,

The longer it takes the main political parties to reform the further left the country will go,
 
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It seems to me Duke that what you are saying about the IRA campaign is that you condemn it because it didn't succeed.

If they had just tied enough people to landmines (As the Free State forces did at Ballyseedy the single largest extrajudicial killing in the Civil War) that the Brits let them have their way you would be supportive of that.

From Wikipedia,
That night, 6/7 March, nine Republican prisoners who had previously been tortured, with bones broken with hammers, were taken from Ballymullen Barracks in Tralee to Ballyseedy crossroads and tied to a land mine which was detonated, after which the survivors were machine-gunned.
 
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