President of Ireland or President of the Republic of Ireland?

cremeegg said:
It seems to me Duke that what you are saying about the IRA campaign is that you condemn it because it didn't succeed.
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I don't really know what I am saying. It's just that any criticism against SF/IRA gets deflected by Wolfie with whatabout the Fenians, whatabout the GOIRA.
Despite the pragmatic compromise of the GFA, NI is still a very divided society. "Up the 'Ra" would be typical banter in republican heartlands, say if Celtic were to score a goal against Rangers.
But there is something very disturbing about "Up the 'Ra" being a shout of triumphalism in a Southern Irish election. In this case it is not a sectarian slogan, which ironically would be less disturbing. It is much worse - it is a subversive fingers to this State. If a FF politician had made such a similar cry of triumph, she would have been fired on the spot.
Of course shouting "Up the 'Ra" is not on the same scale as strapping guys to landmines. That is not the point.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
I don't really know what I am saying.
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I will try help.

Duke of Marmalade said:
But there is something very disturbing about "Up the 'Ra" being a shout of triumphalism in a Southern Irish election.
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As is the office of the President of Ireland in 2016 being used to glorify the deeds of a participant in an indiscriminate bombing campaign in England.

Duke of Marmalade said:
Of course shouting "Up the 'Ra" is not on the same scale as strapping guys to landmines. That is not the point.
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What is your point?
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
It is much worse - it is a subversive fingers to this State.
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Traditionally Republicans did not accept the 26 county state. They did not agree with the compromises in the Treaty. That feeling more or less keenly felt is widespread.

There is also a socialist tradition that does not accept the state as they feel it falls short of the ideals of the proclamation.

The really surprising one, surprising to me at least, is that tradition in Fine Gael that doe not really recognise the state. When Alan Shatter retroactively pardoned the soldiers of the 'Free State' army who deserted to join the British Army in WW2. That really is, subversive fingers to this state, as you so neatly put it.
 
@cremeegg not sure about the last point but I see you accept that SF/IRA are by their DNA subversive to this State. The one consolation that gives me is that it has delayed and will delay, hopefully forever, their being accepted as coalition partners by parties loyal to this State.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
The one consolation that gives me is that it has delayed and will delay, hopefully forever, their being accepted as coalition partners by parties loyal to this State.
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It is wishful thinking I would suggest.
Far from being subversive SF have taken the political route through the institutions of this State and it would appear their raison d'etre of a United Ireland is a concept that resonates profoundly with the vast majority of people of this island.
Of course, the manner of what a UI would look like is a Brexit-esque conundrum.
But the only real subversion is the willful sustaining of partition in its current form, contrary to the Constitution of the State.
 
WolfeTone said:
It is wishful thinking I would suggest.
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Well historically my wishes have come true. In any other country in Europe MLM would now be Teashop, SF clearly were the moral winners of the last election.
Going forward will FF crack and do a deal with a subversive party? Yes it is my wish that it won't happen.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
I'm sorry @cremeegg but whatever Jesuitical point you are making goes way over my head.
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Nothing Jesuitical about it.

During WW2 over 4,000 members of the Irish army deserted to join the British army. Although they were not individually court martialled at the time they were deprived of their pensions etc.

Fast forward to 2013 and a FG government under Alan Shatter as minister gave them an amnesty.

That seems to me to suggest that FG see deserting the Irish army to join the British army as a reasonable thing to do. That service in the armed forces of the 26 county state is not a serious matter. That soldiers who choose to serve the British were doing right. There is a streak in FG that sees the 26 county state as a bit of a joke and we are really British.

When SF disrespect the 36 county state FG are all indignant but some of them really have no great respect for it either.
 
cremeegg said:
Nothing Jesuitical about it.

During WW2 over 4,000 members of the Irish army deserted to join the British army. Although they were not individually court martialled at the time they were deprived of their pensions etc.

Fast forward to 2013 and a FG government under Alan Shatter as minister gave them an amnesty.

That seems to me to suggest that FG see deserting the Irish army to join the British army as a reasonable thing to do. That service in the armed forces of the 26 county state is not a serious matter. That soldiers who choose to serve the British were doing right. There is a streak in FG that sees the 26 county state as a bit of a joke and we are really British.

When SF disrespect the 36 county state FG are all indignant but some of them really have no great respect for it either.
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I am unaware of any instance where a FG successful TD has shouted Up the Brits in celebration. I think even the Jesuits would struggle to argue that FG are more subversive than SF/IRA.
 
@Duke of Marmalade it was not so much as shouting "Up the Brits" as John Brutals grovelling "this is the greatest day of my life", at the reception of Prince Charles was enough for all to see.
 
WolfeTone said:
@Duke of Marmalade you set your sights too high for SF. All they need is to get into government, not necessarily obtain the Taoiseach position.
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And there I see another safeguard. The only realistic prospect of SF/IRA getting into government here is via a FF coalition. On current arithmetic that would have to mean MLM being Teashop. In a way SF are being too successful for their own good. A close second fiddle to FF in the polls would be the perfect stepping stone - an immediate jump to Teashop would surely be too much for the FF faithful.
I am also greatly comforted by @cremeegg's assertion that FG are thinly veiled Brit lovers as surely they will never facilitate SF/IRA getting into power.
 
Other that John "I'm personally responsible for 72% of soup consumption in the State" Bruton, I don't see that FG are some sort of quasi unionist party. It's just something thrown at them by haters who like throwing left wing shapes. They claim their lineage from Michael Collins - hardly a unionist.....

PSF have long droned on about being the keepers of the 2nd Dáil and other related fairytales, Cullinane gave us "Well, do you know what? We broke the bastards.

“We broke the Free State and this country will never be the same again - because the people are after taking their voice and it’s up to us now to deliver."

I laugh at the last bit, "up to us now to deliver" - that will being their undoing. Barstool falls up 4,000% as PSF fail to deliver......


Put them in power, hang onto your hat, batten down the hatches, and when we get to the election after that we'll see some rebalancing.
 
Betsy Og said:
Put them in power, hang onto your hat, batten down the hatches,
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I don't see that at all. Just look at their performance up North. Hardly radical.
I think when they get into power they will be as every bit (in)competent at resolving the social and economic issues of the day as any other party.
They will just become part of the parliamentary furniture with the added caveat that they are active on a 32 county basis and not just paying lip-service to the Constitution.
 
WolfeTone said:
I don't see that at all. Just look at their performance up North. Hardly radical.
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They are a minority in a glorified County Council up North. They'd be running a country is they were in power here. They could do waaaayyyy more damage.
WolfeTone said:
I think when they get into power they will be as every bit (in)competent at resolving the social and economic issues of the day as any other party.
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I don't think they'll achieve anything as the Public Service and Healthcare vested interests are stronger than any government, but it will be very hard to undo their populist tax and spending spree which will damage the productive section of the economy but do nothing to improve public services since the problem there isn't resources but rather the squandering of those resources.
WolfeTone said:
They will just become part of the parliamentary furniture with the added caveat that they are active on a 32 county basis and not just paying lip-service to the Constitution.
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Every government respects that aspiration in the constitution.
 
Purple said:
Every government respects that aspiration in the constitution.
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Of course, they just pay lip service to it mostly.
In fairness to FG they did a good job in preventing the return of physical infrastructure on the border. They just need to get over the psychological border between North and South.
Just like loyalism and the Irish Sea border, its just a state of mind.
 
WolfeTone said:
I don't see that at all. Just look at their performance up North. Hardly radical.
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I like to think there are checks and balances in our modern society which would prevent looney tunes who seize democratic power doing too much damage. The experience in the North is an example, but only because they have very limited powers and in any case completely cancel each other out. Another great example is The Donald. Now there was one looney tune but in the end he was more or less kept in check.
The last big test in these parts was the financial crisis. Fierce Doherty was all for burning the bondholders and of course their DNA would reject entirely the idea of ceding sovereignty to the Troika. I shudder to think where we would be today if SF were in power during that crisis.
 
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