President of Ireland or President of the Republic of Ireland?

[Duke of Marmalade]

The SF today under MLM is vibrant, rejuvenated and never more confident.

If the 'threat' is a political ideology, then I would respectfully remind you that is the very essence of a parliamentary democracy.

I take it from this that you accept that the PIRA Army council are to SF what Union apparatchiks are to Labour. Yes it is allowed within our democracy but it should rule them out as acceptable partners in government for any "constitutional" party. MLM should make it clear who is really pulling the strings in her movement.

 

[WolfeTone]

I take it from this that you accept that the IRA Army council are to SF what Union apparatchiks are to Labour.

No. I don't think that at all.

Trade union influence is very much alive in the Labour movement (is there any other way?)
As Keir Stamer is finding out in Britain.

I'm saying that the principle of achieving a united Irish Republic, alá 1916, through military force is dead.

As I have mentioned before, ALL attempts to obtain an Irish Republic through military force have failed. They have ALL been an abject failure - best effort Treaty of 1921. Yet that led to civil war, partition, and a 25yr sectarian conflict.
The pursuit of an All Ireland Republic through military force has been a calamitous failure for over 300yrs.

In 1998, the seeds of a peaceful path to realise that ambition was borne, and critically it was endorsed by the people overwhelming throughout the island.

The military wing of SF is an old man's drinking club.
Of course SF will pay homage to the volunteers, Thomas Begley and Thomas Clarke, as they always do.

The cause of the use of military force has been nullified. We should rejoice.

 

[Purple]

I'm saying that the principle of achieving a united Irish Republic, alá 1916, through military force is dead.

I think the IRA accepted that 35 years ago. They have successfully morphed their organisation into a political party. What concerns me is the number of times the phrase IRA comes up when I'm talking to friends who are in areas awash with drugs and criminality. The only way to think that's gone away is to be wilfully ignorant.
I fear SF/IRA in office. I fear their links to criminality, not at the top level but at the rank and file level.
I fear their populist pseudo-socialist economic policies.
I fear their upper hypocrisy on social issues when their rank and file consistently display racist and homophobic views while their leadership gives lip service to liberal and inclusive policies.

 

[WolfeTone]

I fear their links to criminality, not at the top level but at the rank and file level.

So they are not being directed by an Army Council out of West Belfast? Its now down to the rank and file that, by the sounds of your reasoning are involved in criminality, in particular the drugs trade?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

To be fair (see I am learning from @Baby boomer) SF is genuinely to be commended on its leadership in social policy. And it is leadership (and not I think hypocrisy) for as @Purple observes this is not the natural instinct of their support base. Is there any similar populist group in Europe with these views (including not being anti immigrant)? Certainly not the DUP.

 

[Purple]

So they are not being directed by an Army Council out of West Belfast? Its now down to the rank and file that, by the sounds of your reasoning are involved in criminality, in particular the drugs trade?

In my opinion there is a high likelihood that the Army Council of the IRA is the real leadership of SF.
The is evidenced in the attendance at the funerals of terrorists by SF leadership and their unwillingness to commemorate or condemn the murder of Gardaí by IRA terrorists.

 

[cremeegg]

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/anti-gay-ex-ira-man-gerry-mcgeough-punched-at-pride-parade-to-protest-at-new-lgbtq-event-in-omagh-40879939.html

Gerry Mcgeough while no longer a member of SF illustrates the problem SF will have if they ever get to power, while the party hierarchy is all liberal and socialist alot of its membership is not. Gerry Mcgeough was of the old Nationalist Catholic wing of the party that did alot of the "fighting" during the troubles and are not too impressed with the direction of the party. He said the hunger strikers would be turning in their graves at the modern SF.
However I think this "macho" element of the IRA explains alot of the attraction to SF by young males who are not well versed on SF policies but this element of cordite and danger is the attraction, So SF is the ultimate catch all party like FF was.

I think the idea that today's SF grassroots are rosary clutching anti-gay antediluvians is a complete misconception. Gerry McGeough as you say is no longer a member of SF.

The typical SF supporter is young and as 'woke' as their counterparts anywhere else, Imperialism may loom larger relatively speaking in their consciousness than in similar groups elsewhere but they are as idealistic and internationalist as any.

 

[WolfeTone]

The is evidenced in the attendance at the funerals of terrorists by SF leadership and their unwillingness to commemorate or condemn the murder of Gardaí by IRA terrorists.

But why would you think SF leadership would be willing to condemn the murder of Gardai during the conflict?
They stand full square behind the IRA campaign. They believe it was a legitimate war albeit they have acknowledged that some atrocities were wrong and should never have happened, such as the murder of Gerry McCabe.
Such things happen in war. Take the tragic drone attack on a young family in Afghanistan for instance.
Should US political leaders turn their back on the military personnel that executed this atrocity, under the sanction of their political masters?
Ideally they should, but it's not going to happen.

So this notion that SF leadership should turn their backs on PIRA now is about as likely as thinking the rest of political establishment will turn their backs on the memory 1916, the GOIRA, and whatever shape or form of IRA you are having yourself over the last century.

 

[Purple]

Your justification is based on whataboutery and historical references and is just silly. I'm not going down that rabbit hole again.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

But why would you think SF leadership would be willing to condemn the murder of Gardai during the conflict?
They stand full square behind the IRA campaign. They believe it was a legitimate war albeit they have acknowledged that some atrocities were wrong and should never have happened, such as the murder of Gerry McCabe.

You're not following the plot, Wolfie. Gerry McCabe was not murdered, it was manslaughter, a botched robbery gone horribly wrong, it certainly did not serve SF/IRA purposes.
I presume @Purple is referring to the recent refusal of a SF councillor to commemorate the political murder by the IRA in 1941 of servants of this state. What is particularly ominous about that refusal by the SF councillor is that neither he nor SF have admitted that the reason for the abstention is that was required by the IRA theology, as Michael McDowell reminds us, that the IRA are the legitimate army of Ireland and Gardai etc. are traitors. I don't think MLM or Fierce Doherty believes that theology but they have to pay lip service to it. David "up the 'RA" Cullinane is a true believer.
@Purple was referring to this episode as very strong circumstantial evidence that sinister forces are pulling MLM's strings.
For me this is a good thing as it is the biggest hindrance to SF being accepted as a partner by constitutional parties. If it were not for this sinister connection surely SF/FF and a few Indos would now be in power. The more David Cullinane and that SF councillor keep letting the veil slip the longer we will be spared sinister forces in West Belfast having access to the strings of power in this country.

 

[joe sod]

The typical SF supporter is young and as 'woke' as their counterparts anywhere else, Imperialism may loom larger relatively speaking in their consciousness than in similar groups elsewhere but they are as idealistic and internationalist as any.

Many of their supporters are young and 'woke' , many more though are hard core nationalists especially some of its tds who love all the "tiocaidh ar la" stuff, many of its supporters are attracted by that hard core macho image which the violent campaign gives them. But that's the problem SF will have in the future they can't keep all these different elements on board,

 

[Purple]

many of its supporters are attracted by that hard core macho image which the violent campaign gives them.

I think that's a very good point. There is a cohort of under educated young men from what is erroneously referred to as 'working class' areas who feel disenfranchised. The hard-man image of the Shinner grass roots is very attractive to them.

 

[cremeegg]

many of its supporters are attracted by that hard core macho image which the violent campaign gives them.

There is a cohort of under educated young men from what is erroneously referred to as 'working class' areas who feel disenfranchised. The hard-man image of the Shinner grass roots is very attractive to them.

Well I can only comment from my own experience, and while that is not extensive, I did have a drink a few weeks ago with a group of young people all politically involved and if they were not all SF supporters it was because SF was not edgy enough for them.

There was absolutely no macho hard man attitude from these people, strongly feminist, pro-LGBTI+, and the organising male of the group was an artist very into creative expression.

It's no coincidence that the top leadership of SF is female. Of course some of you will think that is just a pretence too. A female leadership is the image SF seeks to portray and it is the image it believes will attract and hold its support.

 

[Purple]

Well I can only comment from my own experience, and while that is not extensive, I did have a drink a few weeks ago with a group of young people all politically involved and if they were not all SF supporters it was because SF was not edgy enough for them.

There was absolutely no macho hard man attitude from these people, strongly feminist, pro-LGBTI+, and the organising male of the group was an artist very into creative expression.

That's not my experience.

It's no coincidence that the top leadership of SF is female. Of course some of you will think that is just a pretence too. A female leadership is the image SF seeks to portray and it is the image it believes will attract and hold its support.

There is a disconnect between the upper echelons of the Shinners elected representatives and the grass roots (and the puppet masters) but I'm a big fan of their social agenda. It's their unapologetic links to child killers and their crazy populist economic policies that I have a big problem with.

 

[cremeegg]

There is a disconnect between the upper echelons of the Shinners elected representatives and the grass roots (and the puppet masters) but I'm a big fan of their social agenda.

Interesting

It's their unapologetic links to child killers

We will have to agree to be in possession of different historical facts here

and their crazy populist economic policies that I have a big problem with.

I agree with you here, yet I do think that if SF were in power there would be a fairly rapid dose of reality and I do not doubt that SF would adjust.

 

[Purple]

We will have to agree to be in possession of different historical facts here

Oh, I thought that killed children. Am I wrong? Johnathan Ball and Tim Parry must have blown themselves up. How careless of them.

I agree with you here, yet I do think that if SF were in power there would be a fairly rapid dose of reality and I do not doubt that SF would adjust.

The Shinners have the same populist policies as FF in the 70's. It took decades to recover from that lot.

 

[WolfeTone]

Your justification is based on whataboutery and historical references and is just silly. I'm not going down that rabbit hole again.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm simply bemused at why you would think SF would now turn their back on their comrades? It's no different to the office of President of Ireland being used to euligise Thomas Clarke and his merry band of indiscriminate child killing bombers applauded across the political spectrum.

as Michael McDowell reminds us, that the IRA are the legitimate army of Ireland and Gardai etc. are traitors.

And as I keep trying to remind you, the IRA have been stood down. There is no IRA in the military sense.
SF have signed up to the Policing Board of NI. They advocate for people to report criminal behaviour to the Gardaí.
The recognise the legal authority of the 26 county Parliament and the Court system.
They seek to change this of course, but through peaceful political argument.

McDowell is just part of the residue of a by-gone era. Stuck in 20th century Irish politics. He can huff and puff all he wants but he cannot accept the reality that the sands have shifted under his feet.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

And as I keep trying to remind you, the IRA have been stood down. There is no IRA in the military sense.
SF have signed up to the Policing Board of NI. They advocate for people to report criminal behaviour to the Gardaí.
The recognise the legal authority of the 26 county Parliament and the Court system.
They seek to change this of course, but through peaceful political argument.

McDowell is just part of the residue of a by-gone era. Stuck in 20th century Irish politics. He can huff and puff all he wants but he cannot accept the reality that the sands have shifted under his feet.

That is not what the current discussion is about.
I accept that SF/IRA have decided that their aim of overthrowing the Irish state by force was a failed one and that as a matter of tactics they are now pursuing the democratic route - the Armalite has been released from one hand so that both hands can hold the ballot box.
The current discussion is about whether senior elements of their military wing are still calling the shots. I think you have stated that you do not believe that to be the case; what gives you that confidence? Or maybe a more pertinent question, would it bother you if they did?
@Purple admits to not knowing for sure but cites some powerful circumstantial evidence that it is the case; like the suspicious absence of the SF councillor from the commemoration of Gardai assassinated by the IRA in 1941, would attendance have offended the puppet masters?
Also could MLM, or indeed MON have declined to attend the Bobby Storey funeral, say on the grounds of Covid compliance? One suspects very strongly that they would have fallen foul of their masters in West Belfast.
The assertion by the PSNI that the erstwhile PIRA leadership have given up the violent approach and now follow a political path does nothing to assuage my fears that indeed the "hard men" still pull the strings in SF/IRA.

 

[WolfeTone]

The current discussion is about whether senior elements of their military wing

And as I'm at pains to point out at this stage, there is no military wing.
A retirement cumann, perhaps. But there is no military capability of the IRA.

like the suspicious absence of the SF councillor from the commemoration of Gardai assassinated by the IRA in 1941, would attendance have offended the puppet masters?

I don't know. Perhaps the individual concerned chose not to attend out of his own volition?

Also could MLM, or indeed MON have declined to attend the Bobby Storey funeral, say on the grounds of Covid compliance?

Why on earth would MLM want to decline to attend the Bobby Storey funeral?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Why on earth would MLM want to decline to attend the Bobby Storey funeral?

Ah dear! You are worse than @tecate, remember her.
As a hypothetical I posited what if she had declined. A sort of thought experiment to tease out that it would not go down at all well with her masters in West Belfast. Just as in days of old one might ask what would happen if a Taoiseach didn't go to Mass on Sunday.
But as with all thought experiments maybe the reality would have been different than one might think and her absence would have raised no fuss at all with the retirement cumann - what do you think?
You didn't answer my question. Would it bother you if MLM was in any way answerable to the retirement cumann?