Poverty in America

[purple]

Re.Re: poverty in America

Yep, but that's my point - the closest possible economy (in my opinion anyway) to the unrestrained free market is the USA

I think it is important to make the distinction between a free market and an unregulated market.

What now exists in the US is not a free market since monopolistic interest groups can control supply, and in some cases demand.The US beef industry is a good case in point.
Many of the problems in the USA at the moment are the result of the removal of anti-trust laws in the 1980's which had dated back to the 1920's.
A free market will only exist where government is big enough to keep it free since the further you get up the economic food chain the less appealing a free market is! It is a thin line to walk as the government can't ignore the basics of supply and demand and try to impose an ideal rather than regulating the reality. That, IMHO, is where left wing parties (in general) fall down.
The irony is that even in free markets the closer you get to primary production the less free the market is. Both the US and the EU subsidise their farmers, in the case of the cotton industry in the US the subsidies exceed the total value of the industry. If minimum wages and employment laws make labour intensive low value added work uneconomical then it will move to third world countries where unit labour costs are low and basic labour laws are inexistent. What we in the west now do is add the value to the production of whole countries, not oppressed underclasses in our own countries. We haven't solved the Dickensian exploitation of the poor, we have just moved it.

This is not a new phenomenon, the Portuguese, Dutch, Spanish and English (etc) all sank the ships of anyone who tried to trade with their colonies without permission. We do what the Dutch did in the 15th century; they cut and packed the tobacco and dyes the cotton from the slave plantations in the West Indies.

the closest possible economy (in my opinion anyway) to the unrestrained free market is the USA.

If you want an example of what happens when someone is allowed to put profit before all else then read up on King Leopold the second of Belgium and how he killed between 3 and 7 million people between 1886 and 1907 in the Congo in pursuit of the harvesting of wild rubber and the building of the railway to transport it to the coast. To me he stands alone as the most evil man of the 20th century as his motivation was pure greed.

As for me trolling, perhaps you're correct... Sorry

don't apologise; a bit of intelligent repartee is allways welcome. It's when it descends into nonsensical personalised attacks that I turn off.

 

[Marie]

Wonderful post Purple! I've been "served" on five different occasions in the past seven days by Malaysian (?) or Indian (?) personnel in call-centres whose below-minimum-wage labour is currently keeping my privileged life-style primed and running - my computer, my bank account, my online purchases. The use of others "at-a-distance" is embedded in contemporary life to the extent as to preclude an exploiting "them" (in this case "the" USA) and we all have to take responsibility for how we use the planet's resources......which include other people.

 

[purple]

Thanks Marie, but to counter my own argument here; Ireland is the shining example of how that sort of out sourcing can help a country. We still have a few call centers here and a few years ago we were falling over them. Intel, IBM, Pfizer etc. are all examples of companies that outsourced to a cheaper market (as we once were).
The factor that saved us is a political and legal infrastructure that was strong enough to remain in control of our country.
Ironically this, I think, is the result of the economic isolation that we went through in the early days of the state.

 

[purple]

Again I shoot myself in the foot...what's wrong with me?!?

 

[Max Hopper]

Re: poverty in America (or "Look Who's Talking!

Uhmm, finger-pointers and breast-beaters, all. Stump up a bit, would yez just!

Tackling poverty 'would mean 11pc rise in income tax'<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->IRISH taxpayers would have to pay an additional 11pc income tax to make any dent in the relative income poverty levels in the country, the ESRI said yesterday.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The economic think tank says that although there is high employment in the country, with the average income per head rising dramatically over the last 10 years, the numbers of people falling below 50pc of average income remains well above EU average.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The latest figures available show there are 21pc of people in Ireland below the relative income poverty level. This level is measured at 60pc of average income.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->According to the ESRI, which launched a discussion document on 'Why is Income Poverty so high in Ireland?' political decisions will have to be made on whether the country wants to go down the route of increased taxation with subsequent social welfare increases to lift more people out of the relative income poverty trap.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->"The EU average among the 15 member states which was measured in 2001 was 15pc while Ireland stood 6pc points above this, despite our dramatic increase in income from the mid '90s onwards," said one of the report's co-authors, Brian Nolan.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Adopting the Danish social welfare system would reduce the numbers at risk of poverty by about 7pc - but at a cost.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The ESRI estimates this cost to be equivalent to an 11pc increase in both standard and higher rates of income tax and says that successful anti-poverty policy needs improved education, employment opportunities and better income support.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The report found that the composition of a country's population did not affect the overall levels of income poverty. Ireland has a high proportion of pensioners and single parent families, two sectors vulnerable to income poverty, but these factors do not account for the high levels of relative income poverty, the study says.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The Netherlands has a low relative income poverty rate, but researchers at the ESRI found that standardising the Dutch situation to Ireland did not result in any significant drop in the poverty rates.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->While not all those who fall below relative income thresholds are poor, the EU defines them as being at risk of poverty, and the variation between member states is not explained by age and employment profiles, the composition of a household or single parenthood.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The ESRI concludes that higher spending on social welfare would have to be financed by higher taxation which in itself would have implications for economic incentives, and behaviour and economic growth would have to be taken into account.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->EU figures from 2001 show that, in terms of social protection, Ireland had the lowest rate of spending on old age pensioners, coming in at 24.8pc, while our spending on sickness and health care was the highest accounting for 43.4pc.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Lorna Reid