Poverty in America

Opportunity

US the land of opportunity where you can control your own destiny?

If you get rich its because of hard work and a good luck. Congratulations.

If you fall on bad times and are poor then the same logic doesn't apply. You are poor because its your own fault! No sympathy.
 
utopia

The US is probably as good as it gets.
The US system has contributed more in scientific medical advancement than any other country - we all benefited, even down to our non stick frying pans.
Where else?
The Communist and Socialist models have failed miserably.
The European models are in trouble ( you may have to work till u drop dead) and they benefited from US protection during the Cold War by not spending on defense and getting Autobahns built for them,

It beat me that people moan about the US all the time and don't suggest an alternative working example anywhere else.

The US is far from perfect, we all know that, but show me a working long term alternative.

wam
 
Re.Poverty in America

What hasn't been said here is that a large proportion of the population of the US are emigrants from poor countries with little education and, in many cases, don't speak English.
These people must make up a large proportion of the poor that are being talked about here.
Rainyday quite rightly spoke of the plight of the "Hispanic ladies who scrub the toilets, or the Filipino nannies". That may be the case but at least the USA lets them into their country, we (as in the EU) just keep the poor in their own countries. The US lets them in with the chance for their children or their children's children to prosper and live that American dream. It may not work out and they may stay poor but those of us who don't even afford these people the chance to participate in our version of happy are in no position to criticise the one western country which built itself by giving hope to the poor. In the US if a receptionist works hard and does night classes he/she can put him/herself in a position where he/she can buy a house, run a car and have a good social life (my cousin in St. Louis being the example here). Can the same be said for Ireland?

The broad philosophy in the US that you are free to take care of yourself and the government won't try to run your life for you is very attractive in principle and I am slow to knock it.

All that said there is a real problem in the US with the development of a disenfranchised underclass that sees northing for them in the broad social contract that binds a country together. This can be traced back to the slow destruction of the industrial manufacturing base, starting in the 1950's, that employed many of the black and immigrant groups and gave them a shot at the American suburban dream. This lack of social cohesion is one of the main reasons for the high crime rates in the US. It is in the interests of everyone in any country not to let this happen and on that basis I am happy to pay my taxes and contribute to the left wing system that we have and have had since the foundation of the state.
rainyday wrote;
Irish companies invest more in the US than is invested by US companies in Ireland.
Click to expand...
That seems hard to believe, can you back it up?
Do you mean as a proportion of GNP/GDP?
Daltonr wrote;
In my perfect society I wouldn't care too much about the gap between rich and poor. I'd let the rich get as rich as possible.
But I would be concerned about the standard of living of the worst off. I think that's a more useful measure of a society.
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I agree, statistical poverty levels only reflect how wealth is distributed.
 
re: poverty in the US

Morning all,

I must confess I am a little confused over the mixed messages I'm getting on this thread.

Quote:

"It may not work out and they may stay poor but those of us who don't even afford these people the chance to participate in our version of happy are in no position to criticise the one western country which built itself by giving hope to the poor. In the US if a receptionist works hard and does night classes he/she can put him/herself in a position where he/she can buy a house, run a car and have a good social life (my cousin in St. Louis being the example here). Can the same be said for Ireland?"

Right, now (notwithstanding your cousin here purple) - the idea that the US can turn a pauper into a millionaire, is largely a myth. Certainly in the last generation or so, the ability of people to move up in the socio-economic standing/class has been severely curtailed by people who have the money/resources etc etc.

I believe now that the squeeze is now on the middle classes in the US who are increasingly finding it harder to make ends meet.

One other thought did strike me, if the US is the place to be (blah, blah) why do 50% of the population not bother to vote? One reason might be they don't really recognise that wonderful system we're such in awe of...

Mind you Purple did say as such in the previous post to be fair....... there is a price to be paid for social peace.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my perfect society I wouldn't care too much about the gap between rich and poor. I'd let the rich get as rich as possible.
But I would be concerned about the standard of living of the worst off. I think that's a more useful measure of a society.

I agree, statistical poverty levels only reflect how wealth is distributed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could you elaborate on this point please? I wasn't sure what point yourself and OhPinchy were making here..

Cheers,

OpusnBill
 
Re: re: poverty in the US

That seems hard to believe, can you back it up?
Do you mean as a proportion of GNP/GDP?
Click to expand...
Doh! I was afraid someone might ask me that. It referred to the absolute amounts, not the proportions of GNP/GDP. I'm afraid I don't have the source - though it was a reliable source & it surprised me too. It came from someone senior in IDA (possibly Dan Flinter?) on RTE Radio (possibly Morning Ireland) within the past six months. Sorry I can't be more specific, but I'd welcome the hard numbers from anyone else.

Note that US investment in Ireland isn't done as a great favour to us. It is done to avail of our extremely low corporate tax rates. As soon as they can get a better deal and the same service in Estonia, or Egypt or Eastern Mongolia, they'll be gone like a hot snot.
 
...

OpusNBill - I totally agree that the 'America - the Land of Oppurtunity' lark is now just a myth - as the figures in the original post show the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and multiplying.

A large amount of the poor in America are illegal workers (higher % than in most countries) who will work for anything and in any conditions because its still better than in their homeland. Its a bit rich for purple to say that a pro of the American system is that they let these people in. Anyone who is let into a country should be guaranteed a decent standard of living (above the poverty line and with healthcover at least). A blind eye is turned to a great number of these workers as they are plugging gaps in the most unattractive jobs, and are being exploited in the process. At least in Europe the system aims to provide an acceptable standard of living to those who are granted access.

IMHO, the American system is heavily biased towards the college educated kids from the good side of town. The fact that its so expensive to go to college perpetuates the circle of misery and the media, which is heavily censored and controlled by the rich, feeds the uneducated masses these stories that the American dream is achievable in order for them to live in hope and so support the system.

OpusNBill - with regards purple's point that you quoted in your last post my view on it is: The gap between rich and poor would not concern me so much if the very poorest people were guaranteed a decent standard of living with quality healthcare etc. I'm all for rewarding achievement and endeavour etc. and so have no problem with some people being richer than others in reward for their achievements. However, in the present system these people are getting rich at the expense of the poor. If the poor were guaranteed to live above a certain threshold than it wouldnt bother me that some people were wealthier.
 
Poverty etc.

“It’s a bit rich for purple to say that a pro of the American system is that they let these people in. Anyone who is let into a country should be guaranteed a decent standard of living (above the poverty line and with healthcover at least). A blind eye is turned to a great number of these workers as they are plugging gaps in the most unattractive jobs, and are being exploited in the process. At least in Europe the system aims to provide an acceptable standard of living to those who are granted access.”
The point is that we in Europe exploit these poor in their own countries (as does America) but we don’t let any into our country. So our position it that we treat our immigrants very well, in comparison to the USA, it’s just that we let in bugger all immigrants in the first place.
First generation immigrants in the US are, for the most part, poor people from poor countries. Their children or children’s children have as much a chance of a good comfortable life than any other average American. The majority of immigrants from poor countries do not live in ghettoes despite our stereotypical image of the big city ethnic slum that we see on our TV’s. We laugh at the American stereotype of Ireland and yet we think that we know how Middle America lives. If you haven’t lived there, or at least been there for a while you can’t judge.
 
...

I have spent a good bit of time in the US fairly recently and found that it was surprisingly segregated. In my experience I found that there were definitely poor and middle class areas (as anywhere else). In California poor areas were generally made up of African-Americans, Latin Americans and Asians, and middle class areas were predominantly made up of white people. In the more central, middle America, states middle class areas were still made up of mainly white people, though the number of whites in the poor areas was way higher than in California - reflecting the higher overall level of poverty in these states.

Having spent 4 months living in a run-down, mainly Vietnamese area in prosperous San Diego and worked in a very dodgy, mainly African-American area in San Francisco where my whiteness was a novelty, I would challenge the view that "The majority of immigrants from poor countries do not live in ghettoes despite our stereotypical image of the big city ethnic slum that we see on our TV’s.".

I also completely disagree with purple's statement "First generation immigrants in the US are, for the most part, poor people from poor countries. Their children or children’s children have as much a chance of a good comfortable life than any other average American.". That is what the American dream promised, but the whole point of my argument here is that this has not materialised - the equal chance you mention is a myth.

I agree that a certain amount of the descendants you mention do make it up the ladder and have a comfortable life. However, how many black people get into and can afford the top colleges? How many Mexicans in America do not have health insurance? I am certain that these figures would show that the American dream is not quite what it is made out to be.
 
Re: ...

The broad philosophy in the US that you are free to take care of yourself and the government won't try to run your life for you is very attractive in principle and I am slow to knock it.
Click to expand...


A bit of a myth I'm afraid.

US Republicans in particular are very fond for saying that government should be small, and shouldn't intrude into peoples lives.

To back this up they talk about reduced red tape and regulations for business. Less checks on Gun purchasers, harder to trace gun ownership etc, etc.

On the other hand the Republicans have no problem with intruding into your bedroom. Allowing government to see what books you check out of your library. Preventing a librarian from even contacting a lawyer if asked to produce details on a library member. etc, etc.

"The West Wing" described it best. The Republicans want to make government so small that it will fit into your bedroom.

-Rd
 
America

Someone said there is more Irish investment in the US than the other way around.

There are dozens of US firms here , who came and built factories on greenfoield sites. In my local large town it would be a wasteland were in not for US investment.

Can anyone name one Irish firm who has invested in the US to the same extent?
 
Re: investment in US

Can anyone name one Irish firm who has invested in the US to the same extent?
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AIB (before they got burnt), CRH, Elan (which started out in Athlone), Iona etc etc etc
 
American investment

None of the above Irish businesses went to America and built factories on greenfield sites. They (eg B of I and AIB ) may have went and bought other banks there
with pensioners money, before they got burnt, and the likes of CRH may have bought existing businesses there, but that is a lot different to American investment in Ireland.
 
Re: American investment

So investing in a country by buying a building or factory is a whole lot different to investing in a country by buying a business? - Please explain why?
 
c'mon rain

you'r on a hobby horse again, let it go.

The US is as good as it gets and is basically 50 different countries from the East to the mid west to eth West to the South.
Its far from perfect but you can drive 3000 miles across it and all around it with a lot of freedom.
Where else can you do that?

It saved Europe in two workd wars and the pacific(incl Australia) in WW2
Europe hid behind its skirts for the last 60 years,
It does contribute more to other countries than any other country
of course its far from perfect.

But does it more good than bad?

And americans when they get to know you are extremly warm and generous.

0]
 
nothing to do with rainy's question

That's all lovely cerberus but has bugger all to do with rainyday's question.
 
Re: nothing to do with rainy's question

yeah, but the thread has gone stupid.
Some of these threads linger on and refuse to die.
Maybe therre should be a post limit like 12 on letting of steam
0]
 
re

yeah...or maybe not. Maybe you should just ignore a post if you don't like it :rolleyes
 
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