Post 1995 Supplementary pension query

[Setforlife]

That’s great news, have been following with interest some of the information here as there appears to be a concerted effort to keep details of right s in these areas away from workers. I’ve found a lot of conflicting information and no clear way to actually find out an individuals right.

My spouse is in teaching and post 95, pre 2004 so early enough to be entitled to the 55/35 rule, so she can retire at 55 with full pension (at whatever years she has completed then). however she is supplementary pension also and some advice variously claims she won’t get that part until 60, or 65, or 66. It appears to be advisors getting the 55/35 mixed up with other types of retirement. However it appears impossible to get cast iron proof of what her entitlements are. Has anyone any way to find that out? It’s 10+ years out for us, but we are starting to plan around it now.

 

[Ruffian]

My spouse is in teaching and post 95, pre 2004 so early enough to be entitled to the 55/35 rule, so she can retire at 55 with full pension (at whatever years she has completed then). however she is supplementary pension also and some advice variously claims she won’t get that part until 60, or 65, or 66.

As she is pre-2004 it is certain that she will not have to wait until 65 to avail of the Supplementary Pension (as long as she meets the standard conditions).

I cannot say with 100% certainty that she will not be eligible at 55 but I am fairly confident that she will not become eligible until 60. Although teachers of that era can optionally take retirement at 55 without actuarial reduction the "normal retirement age" for the scheme remains at 60. It is "optional retirement" rather than "normal retirement" and Supplementary is not payable before normal retirement age. The exception would be in the case of approved ill-health retirement - but only if the person does not qualify for a Social Welfare payment, which would be unusual.

 

[DingDing]

That’s great news, have been following with interest some of the information here as there appears to be a concerted effort to keep details of right s in these areas away from workers. I’ve found a lot of conflicting information and no clear way to actually find out an individuals right.

I found when working through the new supplementary pension circular, the pensions office were a bit at sea regarding the circular. I brought it to their attention before they were informed about it, and as my employer is distributed across a number of sites with a number of pensions officers, that group were trying their best to understand and correctly implement the circular. That group had a number of questions about the circular and some anomalies and were trying to get answers. In fairness the local pensions officer worked well to understand my case as it was a complicated case, and indeed I think the group of pensions officers were very interested in my retirement as it raised a number of questions. I would have purchased service, so my supplementary pension was based on less years than my pension. I was buying back service and I also had a professional added years claim in, that I am still waiting to be decided, even though there were questions about a pension scheme I was a member in over 25 years ago. Luckily I had the scheme booklet and was able to address their query. I would have patience with the pensions office, they are doing their best, a new circular landed very last minute and they are doing their best to sort through it.

I will probably be working a few days in November so then I will back to the pensions again, to sort out the reduction in supplementary pension for the days worked.

It is unlikely that the pensions office are trying to deny workers their rights as the payment comes from central funds, there is no financial benefit to your employer in denying you access to your full entitlements, indeed it is in their best interests to do the best for you, and I would expect that their work would be the subject of periodic audit as well.

We have a very good CORE system with all the service etc..... correctly recorded. This is a big help and wouldn't be universal across the public sector.

To be fair, our pensions dept were nothing but professional and even my NSSO payslip had the correct finishing salary as payroll ran my last couple of payrolls early so they could send complete information to the NSSO. The lump sum was paid into my bank account the evening I retired, together with 1 days pension.

They even pointed out I would get slightly more from Jobseekers benefit for the first 9 months. But the extra money was not worth the hassle.


Ill put an update post when the supplementary pension is paid. The calculations look correct and I would be happy with them based on some feedback here.

 

[Setforlife]

As she is pre-2004 it is certain that she will not have to wait until 65 to avail of the Supplementary Pension (as long as she meets the standard conditions).

I cannot say with 100% certainty that she will not be eligible at 55 but I am fairly confident that she will not become eligible until 60. Although teachers of that era can optionally take retirement at 55 without actuarial reduction the "normal retirement age" for the scheme remains at 60. It is "optional retirement" rather than "normal retirement" and Supplementary is not payable before normal retirement age. The exception would be in the case of approved ill-health retirement - but only if the person does not qualify for a Social Welfare payment, which would be unusual.

That’s very helpful a actually and makes sense, it does change the calculation a lot and I’m surprised the unions didn’t more carefully cover off that deal that pretty much cripples the 55/35 rule. Although I guess it still gives you much better options from 55-60

 

[Setforlife]

I found when working through the new supplementary pension circular, the pensions office were a bit at sea regarding the circular. I brought it to their attention before they were informed about it, and as my employer is distributed across a number of sites with a number of pensions officers, that group were trying their best to understand and correctly implement the circular. That group had a number of questions about the circular and some anomalies and were trying to get answers. In fairness the local pensions officer worked well to understand my case as it was a complicated case, and indeed I think the group of pensions officers were very interested in my retirement as it raised a number of questions. I would have purchased service, so my supplementary pension was based on less years than my pension. I was buying back service and I also had a professional added years claim in, that I am still waiting to be decided, even though there were questions about a pension scheme I was a member in over 25 years ago. Luckily I had the scheme booklet and was able to address their query. I would have patience with the pensions office, they are doing their best, a new circular landed very last minute and they are doing their best to sort through it.

I will probably be working a few days in November so then I will back to the pensions again, to sort out the reduction in supplementary pension for the days worked.

It is unlikely that the pensions office are trying to deny workers their rights as the payment comes from central funds, there is no financial benefit to your employer in denying you access to your full entitlements, indeed it is in their best interests to do the best for you, and I would expect that their work would be the subject of periodic audit as well.

We have a very good CORE system with all the service etc..... correctly recorded. This is a big help and wouldn't be universal across the public sector.

To be fair, our pensions dept were nothing but professional and even my NSSO payslip had the correct finishing salary as payroll ran my last couple of payrolls early so they could send complete information to the NSSO. The lump sum was paid into my bank account the evening I retired, together with 1 days pension.

They even pointed out I would get slightly more from Jobseekers benefit for the first 9 months. But the extra money was not worth the hassle.


Ill put an update post when the supplementary pension is paid. The calculations look correct and I would be happy with them based on some feedback here.

That’s good at least re pension units, the dept of education seem to be a different story altogether, which means there is an industry of advice conferences etc generated to try to find out your entitlements could be more simoly given to people by their employer.

 

[DingDing]

That’s good at least re pension units, the dept of education seem to be a different story altogether, which means there is an industry of advice conferences etc generated to try to find out your entitlements could be more simoly given to people by their employer.

I got a benefit statement with all the calculations with a projected retirement date. In fairness pensions were very good at explaining stuff. We are lucky, the same person has been in the pensions office for over 25 years.

 

[Setforlife]

As she is pre-2004 it is certain that she will not have to wait until 65 to avail of the Supplementary Pension (as long as she meets the standard conditions).

I cannot say with 100% certainty that she will not be eligible at 55 but I am fairly confident that she will not become eligible until 60. Although teachers of that era can optionally take retirement at 55 without actuarial reduction the "normal retirement age" for the scheme remains at 60. It is "optional retirement" rather than "normal retirement" and Supplementary is not payable before normal retirement age. The exception would be in the case of approved ill-health retirement - but only if the person does not qualify for a Social Welfare payment, which would be unusual.

Interestingly Ruffian, I re read the latest circular and it’s still actually a bit vague, they say ‘minimum pension age’ rather than ‘normal retirement age’ and then, like in other places, specifically call out that cost neutral retirement doesn’t get supplementary pension until 60. Which would imply to me that 55/35 rule is a minimum pension age, so you would get supplementary pension.again the specifically avoid making it clear

“"Minimum Pension Age" is the minimum pension age at which superannuation benefits may be paid to a particular individual on retirement, or on discharge from the PDF, as provided in the relevant Pre-existing Public Service Pension Scheme rules;”

 

[Setforlife]

This would match up with the most detailed version I’d seen from into previously.

 

[Ruffian]

, I re read the latest circular and it’s still actually a bit vague, they say ‘minimum pension age’ rather than ‘normal retirement age’ and then, like in other places, specifically call out that cost neutral retirement doesn’t get supplementary pension until 60. Which would imply to me that 55/35 rule is a minimum pension age, so you would get supplementary pension.again the specifically avoid making it clear

In recent documents the term "normal retirement age" has been replaced by the term "minimum retirement age". This is most likely because the term "normal retirement age" was confusing in that it seemed to imply that it was the age at which staff normally retire - instead of the age at which they could, if they wished, retire and access their pensions immediately without actuarial reduction. I suspect most continue working beyond 60.

Excluding the special pension/retirement arrangements for certain "uniformed staff" (gardaí, etc), the normal retirement age for pre-2004 PS pension schemes is 60 - including for the education sector. I don't think anything has changed other than changing this term to "minimum retirement age". And the Supplementary is not accessible before normal/minimum retirement age. I don't think teachers have a normal/minimum retirement age of 55 - rather an optional retirement age of 55 with 35 years service. That 35 years includes an allowable professional training period - although this doesn't count towards the actual pension calculation.

 

[Setforlife]

In recent documents the term "normal retirement age" has been replaced by the term "minimum retirement age". This is most likely because the term "normal retirement age" was confusing in that it seemed to imply that it was the age at which staff normally retire - instead of the age at which they could, if they wished, retire and access their pensions immediately without actuarial reduction. I suspect most continue working beyond 60.

Excluding the special pension/retirement arrangements for certain "uniformed staff" (gardaí, etc), the normal retirement age for pre-2004 PS pension schemes is 60 - including for the education sector. I don't think anything has changed other than changing this term to "minimum retirement age". And the Supplementary is not accessible before normal/minimum retirement age. I don't think teachers have a normal/minimum retirement age of 55 - rather an optional retirement age of 55 with 35 years service. That 35 years includes an allowable professional training period - although this doesn't count towards the actual pension calculation.

Yeah, I guess the new definition could be read more the other way though:

“"Minimum Pension Age" is the minimum pension age at which superannuation benefits may be paid to a particular individual on retirement, or on discharge from the PDF, as provided in the relevant Pre-existing Public Service Pension Scheme rules”

When you retire under 35/55 you are at the minimum age that superannuation benefits are paid, I.e you get your pension.

They make it difficult enough, but the act seems clear enough too now that I see the details, the payable at 60 paragraph seems to only apply to ‘part 5’ pension, which is the cost neutral one in the act.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/si/435/made/en/pdf

 

[Setforlife]

Interesting also, the 2005 circular introducing cost neutral early retirement, specifically calls out the special teacher arrangement and gives the example that it is only if real use for people wanting to go from 50-55 or after 55 without the required years, weirdly they imply it’s a ‘long standing arrangenment’ rather than legal right written specifically into the act. it’s a bit of a minefield, seem like might end up getting actual legal advice on the act itself rather than from pension people!

 

[Ruffian]

I had a look at some of those documents. Nothing in them suggests to me that teachers retiring under the 55/35 scheme can access the Supplementary Pension before reaching 60. As I read it, the benefit to the scheme is that they can retire from 55 without any actuarial reduction and that they may be able to reach the required 35 years "actual teaching service" by including up to 2 years for their teacher training.

Anyway, I see you are considering getting legal advice (or has your spouse contacted her union - they should surely know?).
It will be interesting to hear how you get on.

 

[Setforlife]

I had a look at some of those documents. Nothing in them suggests to me that teachers retiring under the 55/35 scheme can access the Supplementary Pension before reaching 60. As I read it, the benefit to the scheme is that they can retire from 55 without any actuarial reduction and that they may be able to reach the required 35 years "actual teaching service" by including up to 2 years for their teacher training.

Anyway, I see you are considering getting legal advice (or has your spouse contacted her union - they should surely know?).
It will be interesting to hear how you get on.

I see your point (assuming we ignore the INTO doc above which specifically says there is a mechanism to ensure no income gap until 66) but nothing in them suggest they can’t access the supplementary pension from 55 either. Then one and only mention of not being able to access supplementary pension until 60 is in the post 2004 cost neutral retirement case.

 

[Ruffian]

I see your point (assuming we ignore the INTO doc above which specifically says there is a mechanism to ensure no income gap until 66) but nothing in them suggest they can’t access the supplementary pension from 55 either. Then one and only mention of not being able to access supplementary pension until 60 is in the post 2004 cost neutral retirement case.

Actually you are correct!
Retirees under the 55/35 scheme can access the Supplementary before the preserved pension age of 60.
See 20.3 (c) here : https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https:...59a-da27-4f0c-bcbc-a2a7b05188db.pdf#page=null

 

[Setforlife]

Actually you are correct!
Retires under the 55/35 scheme can access the Supplementary before the preserved pension age of 60.
See 20.3 (c) here : https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https:...59a-da27-4f0c-bcbc-a2a7b05188db.pdf#page=null

Thanks for that, I was just reading their multiple definitions of minimum retirement age in that document also! It wouldn’t be massive money for us, but across the 5 years 55-59 it would be about €12.5k a year extra money from the supplementary pension which could be the difference between working an extra year or two or not.

 

[Ruffian]

I suppose only a minority would qualify at 55. They would need either 33 or 34 years actual teaching service (presumably full-time or full-time equivalent?) on top of either 4 years or 3 years spent in training. It is still quite a perk - I'm surprised some other sectors haven't jumped on this.

 

[Setforlife]

I suppose only a minority would qualify at 55. They would need either 33 or 34 years actual teaching service (presumably full-time or full-time equivalent?) on top of either 4 years or 3 years spent in training. It is still quite a perk - I'm surprised some other sectors haven't jumped on this.

I suppose a minority but significant enough at 55/56/57, my spouse will qualify at 55 with 34 years service. Straight from school into college, straight into full time work from college. Certainly working until 65 unless you really needed the salary or the small bit of extra pension doesn’t seem worth it at all.

 

[DingDing]

Hopefully this is the final question. I have over 43 years of A stamp including a small number of credited contributions relating to a short period of iunemployment in the late 80's.

In any event I have over the 40 years full A stamp contributions.

One of the things the pension officer asked me to check was:

The pensioner has the 2 options, engage with DSP or claim OSP, if they choose not to engage with DSP there may be implications such as not putting up credits, this is dealt with in section 13 of the circular, it is the responsibility of the pensioner to choose the option that is most beneficial to them.

I assume with over 40 years credits there is no disadvantage in not engaging with DSP.

Is there any light touch way of engaging with DSP while claiming the OSP to sign for credits etc.....

Many thanks everyone for your help with this so far.

 

[CorkHome2022]

Hopefully this is the final question. I have over 43 years of A stamp including a small number of credited contributions relating to a short period of iunemployment in the late 80's.

In any event I have over the 40 years full A stamp contributions.

One of the things the pension officer asked me to check was:

The pensioner has the 2 options, engage with DSP or claim OSP, if they choose not to engage with DSP there may be implications such as not putting up credits, this is dealt with in section 13 of the circular, it is the responsibility of the pensioner to choose the option that is most beneficial to them.

I assume with over 40 years credits there is no disadvantage in not engaging with DSP.

Is there any light touch way of engaging with DSP while claiming the OSP to sign for credits etc.....

Many thanks everyone for your help with this so far.

I think there is one from of Pension Credit that you sign for once a year , this covers you when on the OSP , but with over 40 years of stamps I think your safe .

 

[S class]

You can certainly be retired from PS and continue signing on for credits.

While in receipt of supplementary pension you can still be available for and actively seeking work.

If JB and BP 65 are more than your supplementary pension payment there could be an advantage.

If you are retiring after 1st of April 2025 you would get pay related JB.