Opinion and Discussion: Household Charge.

[monore]

It seems that the govt is deliberately underestimating the numbers of properties in order to make the registration figures look better.

How many properties will be liable for the new Household Tax*– (*which should really be called a Property Tax)

According to preliminary Census 2011 figures – there were 2,004,175 dwellings in Ireland in May 2011. (Of those – 294,202 were vacant and 1709973 dwellings were occupied.)

Vacant houses are not exempt – but it is possible that some of these vacant dwellings may be exempt because they form part of the trading stock of a business and they have never being lived in. Many NAMA owned properties may fall into this exemption – but the total figure involved is not known. Let’s estimate that 100,000 of these vacant properties are exempt. (It is an over estimation and could overlap with some of the unfinished estates)

All Local Authority owned housing is exempt – and that is about 108,000 homes.
Also exempt are houses owned by approved non-profit housing bodies (housing associations and housing co-operatives) which is about 25,000 dwellings.
So – that’s 133,000 exempt rented dwellings.

There are also about 18,000 homeowners on Mortgage Interest Supplement – who will also be exempt.

That brings the total estimated exempt properties to 251,000.

Houses on certain “unfinished estates” are also exempt. The list of unfinished estates is here and there are 1325 estates involved.

Any habitable or inhabited houses on those estates will be exempt for a maximum of 2 years. The government estimate the number of completed houses on unfinished estates in 2012 to be in the region of 34,000.

So – there could be as many as 285,000 houses and apartments that are exempt from the Household Charge. That leaves about 1.73 million properties that could be liable.

 

[ajapale]

How many properties will be liable for the new Household Tax*– (*which should really be called a Property Tax)

Agreed but perhaps it should be called the Property Precursor Tax.

btw whats with the weird stars which pepper your post? Ive removed them.

 

[monore]

btw whats with the weird stars which pepper your post? Ive removed them.

Sorry Ajapale. That was a copy and paste. Forgot to reference

http://www.*****************.com/how-many-properties-will-be-liable-for-the-household-charge.html

 

[La Chime]

It seems that the govt is deliberately underestimating the numbers of properties in order to make the registration figures look better.

How many properties will be liable for the new Household Tax*– (*which should really be called a Property Tax)

According to preliminary Census 2011 figures – there were 2,004,175 dwellings in Ireland in May 2011. (Of those – 294,202 were vacant and 1709973 dwellings were occupied.)

Vacant houses are not exempt – but it is possible that some of these vacant dwellings may be exempt because they form part of the trading stock of a business and they have never being lived in. Many NAMA owned properties may fall into this exemption – but the total figure involved is not known. Let’s estimate that 100,000 of these vacant properties are exempt. (It is an over estimation and could overlap with some of the unfinished estates)

All Local Authority owned housing is exempt – and that is about 108,000 homes.
Also exempt are houses owned by approved non-profit housing bodies (housing associations and housing co-operatives) which is about 25,000 dwellings.
So – that’s 133,000 exempt rented dwellings.

There are also about 18,000 homeowners on Mortgage Interest Supplement – who will also be exempt.

That brings the total estimated exempt properties to 251,000.

Houses on certain “unfinished estates” are also exempt. The list of unfinished estates is here and there are 1325 estates involved.

Any habitable or inhabited houses on those estates will be exempt for a maximum of 2 years. The government estimate the number of completed houses on unfinished estates in 2012 to be in the region of 34,000.

So – there could be as many as 285,000 houses and apartments that are exempt from the Household Charge. That leaves about 1.73 million properties that could be liable.

One factor to add to the numbers excempt-they still have to register to claim their excemption.

 

[La Chime]

My view and why I won,t be paying nor registering.

One, its double taxation, I already paid large stamp duty, and paid off my mortgage, so therefore my house is my private property bought and paid for end of story.

Two, Like most other people, I know dam well its not gonna stop at €100.

Three, Even if you are in a position to pay this now, ask yourself this

1. Will I still have this job Im in this time next year?

2. What new tax will they pass in the next budget even if I can afford it now?

3,Will I still have the same wages/salary this time next year providing my wages/salary don,t get cut and reduced?

4. When I am in my old age, will I be able to pay all these new taxes on my home when I am relying on my pension?

5, And finally if I can afford a household tax of €100 at the present moment, would I be able to afford to a full property tax combined with water charges at over €1000?

 

[monore]

One factor to add to the numbers excempt-they still have to register to claim their excemption.

Indeed. Those in ghost estates and claiming mortgage interest supplement are still required to register so they should be added to the 1.73 million. Yet the govt is giving out an estimate of 1.6 million.

 

[michaelm]

Are they fiendishly smart enough to doctor the figures? I'm not so sure; I think that they have just made a conservative estimate which won't be far off.

 

[swauna78]

Was having a discussion about this with some friends at the weekend. One of them mentioned a friend of hers in the U.K. was asking her what all the fuss is about as it's 'only €100' and they pay far more in council tax over in the U.K.

O.K. - yes, you do pay far more than €100 in 'council tax' over there. However, it covers road repairs in your council's jurisdiction/public lighting/public leisure centres and bin collections.

My car tax is €626 per year. I pay over €300 in bin charges per year. I pay €120 per year to a residents association for grass cutting and grounds maintenance in our estate as the council have refused to take it over! We don't have many public leisure centres like the ones they have in abundance in the U.K either.....

Our marginal tax rate is already pretty high when the USC is taken into account. We have excessive VRT on new vehicles. We have carbon tax and high excise duty on fuel.

And this €100 so called household charge is only the tip of the iceberg! I dread to think what's to come when they announce how they are going to collect the property charge in future years. It's not even going to fund the council services. It's going into the big black hole that is paying back the bondholders. Arghhhhhhhhhh :-(

 

[Protocol]

Our tax levels overall are low.

PRSI at 4% is low.

See here:

[broken link removed]

Our total taxes are 30% of GDP, highest is about 50%.

Adjusting for GNP brings us to 36-38%.

Reducing the fiscal deficit involves new taxes like the property tax.

 

[Protocol]

My view and why I won,t be paying nor registering.

One, its double taxation, I already paid large stamp duty, and paid off my mortgage, so therefore my house is my private property bought and paid for end of story.

People who paid a lot of SD have a reasonable grievience.

However, having "bought and paid for" your house does not make you exempt.

You may have paid for your car, but you still have to pay an annual motor tax.

Two, Like most other people, I know dam well its not gonna stop at €100.


2. What new tax will they pass in the next budget even if I can afford it now?

Hopefully a fat tax and a sugar tax.


5, And finally if I can afford a household tax of €100 at the present moment, would I be able to afford to a full property tax combined with water charges at over €1000?

Reducing the defict will mean a drop in our standards of living.

...

 

[Protocol]

If I bring my faulty car to a mechanic, I take his advice.

If I feel sick, I go to a doctor and take their advice.

Sociologists / economists / etc have spent 100 years trying to develop better, smarter taxes, and most of them agree that property taxes are better than the alternatives.

All taxes are bad in some sense, nobody likes paying them, but property taxes create less negative distortions than other taxes.

Yet people in Ireland seem to ignore or dismiss all this effort to develop better taxes.

The recent rise in VAT will cost us 100s of millions - yet I see no protest.

Many other countries have some form of property tax - are they all mad / crazy??

Of course they aren't, they realise that property taxes are sensible.

 

[bullworth]

Our tax levels overall are low.

However the services we receive in return for the taxes taken are low. Plus we are being suffocated with stealth taxes at the same time. Is the future of Ireland high taxes, no services plus stealth taxes suffocating domestic activity ? Taxes as high as the high tax countries but services nowhere near what their citizens enjoy ? I suspect low taxes have a lot of support in Ireland not least because the ordinary person in the street realizes that the government simply cannot be trusted to spend your money properly.

 

[ivannomonet]

Many other countries have some form of property tax - are they all mad / crazy??

Of course they aren't, they realise that property taxes are sensible.

The issue I have with this tax is that it is not being fairly targetted.

I live in the countryside, yes , by my own choice,yes, in the house I pay for.
I have no libraries, public parks, street lighting, public transport, fire brigade, ambulance etc on my doorstep.
Yet the 100's of thousands of people who cant be bothered to try and make an effort to improve their own lives who live in cheap or free social housing have all of these amenities and more, and they are exempt? Explain to me why the very people who benefit from these services don't pay for them and I should pay twice??

 

[Centaur]

I've paid mine this week. The principle of the tax is a good one although it will need a lot of tweaking ... so we'd better get on with trying to bring the country out of the mess its in.

What we badly need is to see it going hand in hand with genuine local government reform and accountability but I can't think of one single politician in the Dail, Senate or Local Government that I would have real faith in. Sad.

 

[mcloving]

If I bring my faulty car to a mechanic, I take his advice.

If I feel sick, I go to a doctor and take their advice.

Sociologists / economists / etc have spent 100 years trying to develop better, smarter taxes, and most of them agree that property taxes are better than the alternatives.

All taxes are bad in some sense, nobody likes paying them, but property taxes create less negative distortions than other taxes.

Yet people in Ireland seem to ignore or dismiss all this effort to develop better taxes.

The recent rise in VAT will cost us 100s of millions - yet I see no protest.

Many other countries have some form of property tax - are they all mad / crazy??

Of course they aren't, they realise that property taxes are sensible.

Try stating that to someone who spent many tens of thousands on the previous property tax, known as STAMP DUTY

 

[serotoninsid]

I initially registered for the tax back in January. However, since then I've not followed through. There is no issue with a property tax. However, it's converting taxes into services that is an issue in Ireland.

At a more basic level, my issue is this. Over the past 12 months, I have been in contact with the Co.Co. planning office - trying to get an answer as to what bond is held for my estate (if any) and the amount of said bond. I enquired if residents could get access to said bond in order to bring about completion of the estate. I also enquired about the council taking the estate in charge. What has unfolded in my comms with the council in the following months would not be tolerated in any other european country. Firstly, they sent out letters confirming the receipt of my emails. Who - in this day and age - would do such a ridiculous (wasteful) thing!? In my follow up mails pressing for answers to the questions posed, I got response after response -saying Mary has passed this on to John for review. Then John has passed it on to Joe. i.e. Getting FOBBED OFF.

If they can't even be straight with people - and won't even consider taking the estate in charge, someone please inform me why I should pay a property tax???

 

[csirl]

At a more basic level, my issue is this. Over the past 12 months, I have been in contact with the Co.Co. planning office - trying to get an answer as to what bond is held for my estate (if any) and the amount of said bond.

Off thread topic but Submit a Freedom of Information request for all documentation relating to it and you'll have the info within 4 weeks.

 

[NANA01]

Ok lets get some facts straight.

This money goes to Dublin. You get your application form from the County Council but it goes straight to Dublin with money enclosed. Not receipted or taken in by County Councils. The County Councils will take your form and money and post to Dublin for you if you want.

Each year the Dept of Environment yearly give grants and subsities to the Local Authorities to provide certain services, this money is in addition to local commercial rates/rents/traffic fines any other income. Now what they have done is reduced these grants and going to replace it with the money received from the household charge and this will be decided by the Deparment.

In short .... and my mother hates when i say this .... SAME DIFFERENCE!!!

This money is NOT going to local authorities as advertised they are just getting the money they are allocated anyway yearly from our taxes.... just getting less.

No I dont work as a public servant before I get the usual public servant bashers. Just wanted to point out the facts. Its a bit simplified above but lets not fool ourselves the money is going to pay off the lifestyle of the bankers and developers for the last 10 years. Thats all I will say on that.

 

[serotoninsid]

Off thread topic but Submit a Freedom of Information request for all documentation relating to it and you'll have the info within 4 weeks.

Ok thanks. I appreciate that. Mods - please be aware that I outlined this in the context of my frustration in not getting the most basic of services - and bearing this in mind in my decision making re. the household charge.

 

[Protocol]

NANA1,

correct, the central Govt gran to the LA will be reduced by 160m, as the LA will receive the Household Charge income.

LA will not be better off.

Fiscal deficit will reduce by 160m.