North Korea - how lucky are we...

Purple said:
Society is bigger than the economy so while we shouldn't use GNP/GDP or GNI to measure societal success what's wrong with using them to measure economic growth?
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Nothing wrong with them, they are simply insufficient. Economic growth is generally accepted as good, but if that economic growth is based on the construction of 50,000 apartments in rural towns and villages, then it is somewhat a fools gold. By concentrating on the monetary value of GDP alone, and its increase in value over the inflation rate, it is masking other inefficiencies or other costs that are not factored into economic development.
 
TheBigShort said:
By concentrating on the monetary value of GDP alone, and its increase in value over the inflation rate, it is masking other inefficiencies or other costs that are not factored into economic development.
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I agree, that's why GNI is a better measure.
 
Purple said:
I agree, that's why GNI is a better measure.
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It is still an insufficient measurement. It masks inefficiencies building up in that 'growth'.
Given the universal acceptance of the Paris Climate Change accord, I would think that carbon emissions would now be an integral part of calculating GDP?
Its fine if employment rises and economic activity creates extra $$$ and 'growth' but if it is dependent on burning extra fossil fuels then some form of calculation to take that into account, reducing the level of GDP, should be considered.
I also think calculations derived from a broad spectrum of activities should be factored into measuring growth - education, crime, health, voluntary sector, arts & culture, etc...etc...
The way I see it, all that apparently matters is trade. How much it costs to produce consumable goods and how how they can sell for. That is a very narrow and limited way to measuring economic growth in my opinion.
 
TheBigShort said:
Its fine if employment rises and economic activity creates extra $$$ and 'growth' but if it is dependent on burning extra fossil fuels then some form of calculation to take that into account, reducing the level of GDP, should be considered.
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Better to maintain or improve growth with greener energy sources, more like.

TheBigShort said:
I also think calculations derived from a broad spectrum of activities should be factored into measuring growth - education, crime, health, voluntary sector, arts & culture, etc...etc...
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You'll find that richer countries have better "education, crime, health, voluntary sector, arts & culture, etc...etc..."
 
TheBigShort said:
It is still an insufficient measurement. It masks inefficiencies building up in that 'growth'.
Given the universal acceptance of the Paris Climate Change accord, I would think that carbon emissions would now be an integral part of calculating GDP?
Its fine if employment rises and economic activity creates extra $$$ and 'growth' but if it is dependent on burning extra fossil fuels then some form of calculation to take that into account, reducing the level of GDP, should be considered.
I also think calculations derived from a broad spectrum of activities should be factored into measuring growth - education, crime, health, voluntary sector, arts & culture, etc...etc...
The way I see it, all that apparently matters is trade. How much it costs to produce consumable goods and how how they can sell for. That is a very narrow and limited way to measuring economic growth in my opinion.
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Is it not more a case of measuring economic growth being a very narrow and limited way to measure the growth, development and success of a country and/or society?
 
Purple said:
Is it not more a case of measuring economic growth being a very narrow and limited way to measure the growth, development and success of a country and/or society?
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Perhaps yes. I dont distinguish much between society and the economy. The two are too interwoven to plausibly seperate from each other.
The GDP measurements, to which governments place too much store in, relate only to the monetary value attributable to economic activity in commercial trade.
Its obviously highly significant, but economic activity is everywhere and is not always measured in €€€.
 
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Firefly said:
Better to maintain or improve growth with greener energy sources, more like.



You'll find that richer countries have better "education, crime, health, voluntary sector, arts & culture, etc...etc..."
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I agree, in general. Not sure what your point is, although admittedly NK is not getting much of a look in now :)
 
cremeegg said:
Please guys buy a history book.
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The most recent one I read was Humanity - A Moral History of the 20th Century by Jonathan Glover. Seems pretty apt to this thread.
Sadly the moral horrors of WWI trenches, Nazism, Stalinism and the gulags, Pol Pot and Yugoslavia are being continued in the 21st century by North Korea.

Contributions from your recent readings are welcome...
 
NK is playing a diplomatic blinder in my opinion.
After months of antagonism with the US and rocket launches and at least one nuclear test, they are now apparently offering a shutdown of nuclear sites and freeze on further testing.
The participation in the Winter Olympics and the approval of SK pop bands performing in the north signals a willingness for change imo.
From my armchair the NK play is this - we are open for business and open for reform and willing to move toward reunification.
The flip side is that the security of the regime leaders will be gauranteed by China and guaranteed some ambassador role (so no repeat of Saddam or Gaddaffi) and that US forces will retreat off Korean soil in return for a US embassy in the North to negotiate long-term diplomatic, security and trade agreements.
All just a hunch of course.
 
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TheBigShort said:
NK is playing a diplomatic blinder in my opinion.
After months of antagonism with the US and rocket launches and at least one nuclear test, they are now apparently offering a shutdown of nuclear sites and freeze on further testing.
The participation in the Winter Olympics and the approval of SK pop bands performing in the north signals a willingness for change imo.
From my armchair the NK play is this - we are open for business and open for reform and willing to move toward reunification.
The flip side is that the security of the regime leaders will be gauranteed by China and guaranteed some ambassador role (so no repeat of Saddam or Gaddaffi) and that US forces will retreat off Korean soil in return for a US embassy in the North to negotiate long-term diplomatic, security and trade agreements.
All just a hunch of course.
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It could also be said that The Donald has played a blinder, calling the bluff of Rocket man, loath that I am to give Trump any praise for anything.
 
Purple said:
It could also be said that The Donald has played a blinder, calling the bluff of Rocket man, loath that I am to give Trump any praise for anything.
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I agree, if he gets a result here it will be a large feather in the cap for the 2020 elections.
 
Purple said:
It could also be said that The Donald has played a blinder, calling the bluff of Rocket man, loath that I am to give Trump any praise for anything.
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I would say yes, his approach seems to be producing results. I'm not a Trump-basher but my concern is that while this approach may have worked here, I get the feeling that it is Trump's default position rather than something he has done based on assessing the particular situation.
 
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