North Korea - how lucky are we...

Purple said:
I'll stay off that hobby horse and keep this post on topic to your off topic post. :D
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Damn! You saw through my not-so subtle deployment of 'whaddaboutery':p

Back to NK so, does anyone really think that deploying nuclear warships off the coast of NK is about bringing 'freedom and democracy' to its troubled people?

Or would a military conflict, bringing instability to the region, including mass refugee movements into China and possibly a permanent US military base on the border of China give the US more leverage in future trade discussions, like the oil market for instance?
How would Russia re-act with a US military base on its border?

I dont think ordinary Koreans, North or South, feature heavily in US military expansionist plans.
 
South Korea is a major trading partner of the US as well as a military ally.
From speaking to a few Korean people over the years they are happy with the US military presence there as they live under the shadow of totalitarian Russia and China as well as their Northern neighbours. The USA is far from perfect but given the other players in the region I'd pick them to have on my side any day of the week.

The solution, in my opinion, is for China to deploy nuclear weapons in North Korea, offering it the same sort of protection that Germany received from the USA during the Cold War. The result is a secure North Korea with less nuclear proliferation.
 
TheBigShort said:
Interestingly, I had cause to look up a list of countries electricity use per capita as part of the bitcoin discussions

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption

I expected NK to be near rock bottom, surprisingly it is listed 80th in the world for electricity usage with 157 kw on avr per person
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Then how do we explain images like this?

NK may be 80th as a country but I am betting the ordinary folk are not real users.....the military is probably using the lion's share....
 
TheBigShort said:
Back to NK so, does anyone really think that deploying nuclear warships off the coast of NK is about bringing 'freedom and democracy' to its troubled people?
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On that specific point; the purpose of the warships is to protect free and democratic people from a totalitarian lunatic whose family have enslaved their own people. I am often critical of US foreign policy but in this case there is a clear distinction between the protagonists.
 
Purple said:
South Korea is a major trading partner of the US as well as a military ally.
From speaking to a few Korean people over the years they are happy with the US military presence there as they live under the shadow of totalitarian Russia and China as well as their Northern neighbours. The USA is far from perfect but given the other players in the region I'd pick them to have on my side any day of the week.

The solution, in my opinion, is for China to deploy nuclear weapons in North Korea, offering it the same sort of protection that Germany received from the USA during the Cold War. The result is a secure North Korea with less nuclear proliferation.
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I agree with all of that (except deployment of chinese weapons) and I think you hit the nail on the head. SK in a major trading partner with US. If it wasnt a major trading partner I dont there would be as much interest in the plight of Koreans, north or south.
 
Firefly said:
Then how do we explain images like this?

NK may be 80th as a country but I am betting the ordinary folk are not real users.....the military is probably using the lion's share....
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You could be right. But the link to the report you attached, with photos, suggest otherwise. Notwithstanding is the probability that limited opportunities are offered to take photos.
Im not for a second suggesting or advocating for the NK regime, merely concious that propaganda works on both sides of the fence.
 
Purple said:
On that specific point; the purpose of the warships is to protect free and democratic people from a totalitarian lunatic whose family have enslaved their own people. I am often critical of US foreign policy but in this case there is a clear distinction between the protagonists.
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Case in point. In my view, lunatics and their families, are generally incapable of enslaving entire populations over sustained periods of time.
 
TheBigShort said:
Case in point. In my view, lunatics and their families, are generally incapable of enslaving entire populations over sustained periods of time.
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I hope you're right. Kim is in Beijing at the moment. Surely he must see the transformation of the Chinese economy and wonder, just wonder, if he's doing the right thing by his people...
 
TheBigShort said:
Case in point. In my view, lunatics and their families, are generally incapable of enslaving entire populations over sustained periods of time.
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Maybe, but there lots of examples of regimes/families who have enslaved/controlled populations for long periods- Mugabe, Saddam, Stalin, Ceaucescu, certain African countries etc. NK is perhaps a stellar example of how bad it can get.
 
Firefly said:
I hope you're right. Kim is in Beijing at the moment. Surely he must see the transformation of the Chinese economy and wonder, just wonder, if he's doing the right thing by his people...
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I dont it is as simple as that (or maybe it is?).
I think S&N Korea harbour intentions of re-unification. But technically they are still at war. Im no expert on the Korean war, but figures of 30% of the population being killed leaves a lasting legacy.
Economic sanctions dont help either. Kim will rightly point to China as an example of increasing prosperity, all under the centralised command regime of the Chinese Communist Party. In other words, prosperity is attainable with and without direct US interference.
Also in order to sustain support for the regime, a significant level of support from the population is required to maintain it. To do that, a certain quality of living needs to be attained, otherwise the regime will collapse upon itself, same as everywhere else.
 
Conan said:
Maybe, but there lots of examples of regimes/families who have enslaved/controlled populations for long periods- Mugabe, Saddam, Stalin, Ceaucescu, certain African countries etc. NK is perhaps a stellar example of how bad it can get.
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Yes, the 'family' is the focal point, but in order to achieve a monopoly on political power, a significant portion of popular support from the population is required. All those you mentioned above had significant support from the population. Only when did that support wane, did the regimes collapse (except maybe Iraq - I do wonder if given the chance would Iraqis prefer Saddam or the chaos they endure today?)
 
I often believe that a “benign dictatorship “ works better in certain countries than “democracy”. The fact is that certain countries just cannot handle democracy. We have seen the US trying to impose “democracy” on certain countries (eg Afghanistan, Iraq etc) and not always successfully. Whether it is tribal or ethnic differences, the reality is that certain countries were artificially created (in Africa and the Middle East) and just don’t fit into a democratic structure (with the limitations that such entails).
 
All countries are artifically created as too is democracy. I dont subscribe to the notion that 'certain countries' cannot handle it.
Either the people want it or they dont. If they want it and havent got it, typically they need to fight for it.
NK population, to the best of my knowledge, has shown little by way of fighting for democracy.
That said, when things change, as they do, they tend to change quite quickly.
 
TheBigShort said:
NK population, to the best of my knowledge, has shown little by way of fighting for democracy.
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When even speaking out is enough to have your entire family (and the following two generations under three generation punishments) interred in prison camps for life, there will never be a revolt.
 
Leo said:
When even speaking out is enough to have your entire family (and the following two generations under three generation punishments) interred in prison camps for life, there will never be a revolt.
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I disagree.
If you are aware of the unjust nature of such a system, then it stands to reason most NK's can understand the unjust nature of such system.
In such circumstances, it stands to reason that amongst the population of some 11m some are prepared to organise and sacrifice - its human nature.
However, it is also not beyond reason that the regime is successful in rounding up and brutally quashing any dissent as you have suggested. But to do that, organisational structures go far beyond the 'family'. Such an organistion requires layers upon layers of subservient and loyal subjects amongst the population. Such loyalty and subservience is sustained through, in no insignificant part, the provision of a minimum standard of living.
Without it, as Yeats would say, "the centre cannot hold".
 
TheBigShort said:
Also in order to sustain support for the regime, a significant level of support from the population is required to maintain it. To do that, a certain quality of living needs to be attained, otherwise the regime will collapse upon itself, same as everywhere else.
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The nazi regime didnt collapse from within... even in 1945 under total blockade and air bombardment. It took the death of hitler and invasion from two fronts.
 
TheBigShort said:
I never said it did.
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Let's hear your scenario for internal collapse then. How many people will have died from starvation before the pyramid starts to crumble? Will there be a civil war?
Because the Nazis didn't collapse, nor did the Japanese, from within... and they were under a massive amount of external pressure and daily bombardment and total blockade.
 
odyssey06 said:
Let's hear your scenario for internal collapse then. How many people will have died from starvation before the pyramid starts to crumble? Will there be a civil war?
Because the Nazis didn't collapse, nor did the Japanese, from within... and they were under a massive amount of external pressure and daily bombardment and total blockade.
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Are you advocating full-scale bombardment of NK then? It would appear so.

I dont have a 'scenario' for internal collapse. Im merely pointing out that the NK must, to some significant extent, enjoy the loyalty and support of its people in order for it to sustain over any significant length of time.
Both Nazis and Japanese had the support of people and military and thats why they didnt collapse from within - exactly my point.
 
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