I think we need to reach a tipping point somehow (especially in our urban areas) where there are so many cyclists that cars/trucks/buses/pedestrians are more aware of cyclists simply due to their numbers. When I was in Amsterdam recently I was nearly knocked down by cyclists a few times within the first few hours. Obviously I was aware that cycling was common in Amsterdam, but I wasn't that aware.
New minimum distance for cars passing cyclists to be introduced.
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
- Start date
I think we need to reach a tipping point somehow (especially in our urban areas) where there are so many cyclists that cars/trucks/buses/pedestrians are more aware of cyclists simply due to their numbers. When I was in Amsterdam recently I was nearly knocked down by cyclists a few times within the first few hours. Obviously I was aware that cycling was common in Amsterdam, but I wasn't that aware.
Hello,
Ultimately, if we designed better, safer, bike lanes then everyone would be happy and probably a lot safer too !
This is an example of a well designed Dublin bike lane
Here is an example of a badly designed Dublin bike lane
Here is another example of bad design !
.. and here's another !!!
Neither cyclists or pedestrians are safe as a result of the layout in three of those four links - cyclists having to dodge bins, pedestrians having to avoid cyclists while waiting for their bus, cyclists having to ensure they don't hit pedestrians crossing over the cycle lane from shelter to bus lane, pedestrians otherwise forced to stand too close to the edge of a narrow road etc.
Perhaps it's time that we all stopped arguing between ourselves and united to deal with the real problems - bad planning and design ?
Special thanks to DCC btw, who not only designed those layouts in the images above, but also probably had large cost overruns in the process of completing them too !
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Ultimately, if we designed better, safer, bike lanes then everyone would be happy and probably a lot safer too !
This is an example of a well designed Dublin bike lane
Here is an example of a badly designed Dublin bike lane
Here is another example of bad design !
.. and here's another !!!
Neither cyclists or pedestrians are safe as a result of the layout in three of those four links - cyclists having to dodge bins, pedestrians having to avoid cyclists while waiting for their bus, cyclists having to ensure they don't hit pedestrians crossing over the cycle lane from shelter to bus lane, pedestrians otherwise forced to stand too close to the edge of a narrow road etc.
Perhaps it's time that we all stopped arguing between ourselves and united to deal with the real problems - bad planning and design ?
Special thanks to DCC btw, who not only designed those layouts in the images above, but also probably had large cost overruns in the process of completing them too !
.
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dereko1969
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Whilst bad planning and design is a factor the overwhelming factor is inattentive motor vehicle drivers, most deaths of people cycling last year were people hit from behind by motor vehicle drivers in areas with a higher than 50km/h speed limit. Most of the roads where this happened will never have segregated cycle lanes as they are essentially rural roads, so driver education and awareness is key, which is where the new law will be vital in increasing awareness.
Essentially we have a huge cohort of people driving who have never cycled, that is people in their 20s to 40s, allied to an increasing number of people cycling now, we are nearly back at late 80s/early 90s number of cyclists, so many of those driving have never experienced close passes by cars, been cut-off by cars turning left etc so they don't know how frightening it is to experience that. Once you've experienced that as a cyclist you are much more aware of it when driving.
We also now have a massive amount of people looking at their phones whilst driving, who never indicate in advance of a turn etc. and who are generally rushing much more than they used to.
Everyone needs to be more aware of each other on the road and to keep an eye out, no motorist wants to kill a cyclist but that won't stop them doing so until they pay more attention - this law will encourage them to do so.
Essentially we have a huge cohort of people driving who have never cycled, that is people in their 20s to 40s, allied to an increasing number of people cycling now, we are nearly back at late 80s/early 90s number of cyclists, so many of those driving have never experienced close passes by cars, been cut-off by cars turning left etc so they don't know how frightening it is to experience that. Once you've experienced that as a cyclist you are much more aware of it when driving.
We also now have a massive amount of people looking at their phones whilst driving, who never indicate in advance of a turn etc. and who are generally rushing much more than they used to.
Everyone needs to be more aware of each other on the road and to keep an eye out, no motorist wants to kill a cyclist but that won't stop them doing so until they pay more attention - this law will encourage them to do so.
I really don't think that motorist behavior on rural roads will change in the slightest, as a result of this new rule.
Traditionally, there have been large numbers of motorists and motorcyclists also killed on rural roads, it's a long term problem. I fully appreciate that it's not always economically viable to improve these roads, or introduce safe bike lanes, but there's a big and long standing issue with the way people drive on rural roads - both by day and night.
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Just curious where you are getting the stats on 'from behind'? This very detailed breakdown from 2017 mentions road speed limits but not that:
http://irishcycle.com/2018/01/03/cycling-deaths-2017/
It uses 60 kmh/h as its boundary, rather than 50 km/h:
"A large majority of collisions (nearly 67%) are in speed zones over 60km/h — the speed at which national and international guidance recommends segregation between bicycles and cars."
Does this not also suggest that if rural roads are that narrow and cannot be segregated that their speed limits are unsafe - for pedestrians, for cyclists, for other vehicles?
And maybe it would be more effective all round to focus on that rather than this measure?
In addition to the obvious consideration regarding speed, there's also the consideration as to what part of the bike or car makes contact - cars generally have smooth surfaces, bikes don't. That may have been where mathepac was coming from
That's true, but most of the forward parts of a bike, the wheel or bars don't have a large mass themselves and are more mobile (assuming the cyclist doesn't maintain a vice like grip.) The most dangerous part of a bike / cyclist combo will always be the cyclist as they carry most energy into the collision. The chain-ring (on bikes with multiple rings where the chain isn't in the largest ring) will be the sharpest part, but even in crashes in race peletons, injuries caused by chain-rings are rare. There are concerns about the introduction of disc brakes into road racing may result in more serious injuries, but studies so far have failed to back that up, and discs will be a more common sight this year.
DeclanDublin
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For my tuppence worth, as a cyclist and a motorist, most drivers do give cyclists a wide berth unless they simply can't do to the road space, and in my experience they generally give way. When drivers don't give space and crowd' the cyclist, it can be quiet scary as there is literally nowhere for the cyclist to go. I was cycling thru a small housing estate yesterday with cars parked either side, and a wee Micra approached forcing me to duck into a space between cars. The driver? A little old lady in her 70's or 80's on the mobile and holding it to her ear. There are some dopes out there and that's a fact. On the general issue of Lord Ross's law, I think he's simply getting airtime, and that there'll be few if any prosecutions.
I think he's simply getting airtime, and that there'll be few if any prosecutions.Ceist Beag
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I agreed with everything you said Derek up until the bit in bold. I really don't think this law will change these behaviours at all. As you already said, there are a massive amount of people looking at their phones while driving despite the fact this is against the law. Also, as you say most of the roads where cyclists are at most at risk are rural roads where Garda presence is very low. A large number of people have already decided that the chances of being caught on their phone is so low they ignore this law so the chances they will pay attention to this new law when the chances of being caught breaching it are much much lower are negligible imho.
Brendan Burgess
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I cycled from Sandymount into town this morning. Then out to Dalkey from town and then back to Sandymount.
It occurred to me that if the Gardai fitted out about 20 to 30 responsible citizen cyclists with the appropriate cameras and linked them up to the penalty point system, it would be very easy and efficient to issue penalty points for dangerous cycling.
I could take my camera off now and input the details and the relevant clip for at least four drivers who should be issued with a lot of points. A car with a rotten exhaust driving in the bus lane at speed, indicating to turn left, but going straight on. A taxi brushing up against me in the bus lane. And many cars breaking red lights. It would be very easy for citizen cyclists to record this. I think it would quickly improve most drivers' behaviour and probably see quite a few off the road.
Brendan
It occurred to me that if the Gardai fitted out about 20 to 30 responsible citizen cyclists with the appropriate cameras and linked them up to the penalty point system, it would be very easy and efficient to issue penalty points for dangerous cycling.
I could take my camera off now and input the details and the relevant clip for at least four drivers who should be issued with a lot of points. A car with a rotten exhaust driving in the bus lane at speed, indicating to turn left, but going straight on. A taxi brushing up against me in the bus lane. And many cars breaking red lights. It would be very easy for citizen cyclists to record this. I think it would quickly improve most drivers' behaviour and probably see quite a few off the road.
Brendan
Completely agree, only increased enforcement will change behaviours, and that enforcement needs to be applied to all categories of road users.
Ceist Beag
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Before they start that they could already do this using the traffic cameras. I regularly see cars in the bus lane on the Long Mile Road during restricted hours. Maybe they do this already ... I doubt it though!
But only at those points where sampling takes place. So how many samples in a cross city journey vs. the total distance travelled? I believe they grossly distort the numbers in the study I quoted, thus producing Daily Star / Indo type headline numbers that hide the truth. Using the samples I can see the LAs planning to slow traffic even further!
Parkmore is a problem because of the massive junction leading to it with two massively busy dual carriageways pouring traffic onto three single-lane roads. Parkmore has become a rat-run/speed-track out towards the Tuam Rd because of lousy planning (again). I'm not excusing speeding but I understand the feelings of frustration that might bring it about.
How many points do they need to demonstrate systemic speeding where the opportunity arises? The total distance traveled has no relevance.
RETIRED2017
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Were you walking out in front of cyclists nearly knocking them down, Did you notice most were using Dutch bikes or city bikes which are a lot safer in city traffic,You will find most are fitted with a bell and used quite a lot to warn Pedestrians when they are approaching them,
Good cyclist make good drivers bad cyclist make bad drivers most well be cyclist before they become drivers we need to have a campaign aimed at respecting the laws of the road aimed at young cyclist which long term will also make them better drivers,
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All we're doing is setting up notional firing squads of motorists, cyclists, pedestrians to shoot the other groups. Three new minorities have been created caring motorists, responsible cyclists and intelligent pedestrians. All the other road users are the enemy and guess what? These other road users don't care, never cared and probably never will care. It doesn't matter what new laws are enacted because we don't have the numbers or even the will to police them. Whether we like it or not we have got to make it an anti social issue to work.
The insurance companies will dictate that all cars should be equipped with dash cameras. The cranky, fist waving, finger pointing cyclists will be the new patrols going out of their way to abuse, insult and be a general danger to others as well as themselves. Our uncaring motorists will retaliate pretty fast too. The uncaring pedestrians will continue to own the roads. And gues what guys:- All of us have a ringside ticket for the lot.
If ever I saw a recipe for disaster, it is this issue. Unless we all get our act together, we will be laughing stock off the rest of the world. During the recent icy weather nearly all road users were gentlemanly towards each other. Suddenly, the ice abates and it's back to "We can all do what we want" on the roads. It really is a pity and good road use conduct costs nothing.
The insurance companies will dictate that all cars should be equipped with dash cameras. The cranky, fist waving, finger pointing cyclists will be the new patrols going out of their way to abuse, insult and be a general danger to others as well as themselves. Our uncaring motorists will retaliate pretty fast too. The uncaring pedestrians will continue to own the roads. And gues what guys:- All of us have a ringside ticket for the lot.
If ever I saw a recipe for disaster, it is this issue. Unless we all get our act together, we will be laughing stock off the rest of the world. During the recent icy weather nearly all road users were gentlemanly towards each other. Suddenly, the ice abates and it's back to "We can all do what we want" on the roads. It really is a pity and good road use conduct costs nothing.
In the UK some insurers offer a 10-20% discount if you have a dash-cam fitted. The downside of course is you're only covered if the camera is operational and you must submit the recorded footage with any claim. So camera breaks, you'll face problems claiming.
Our fault entirely. We were tourists admiring the city and in particular the lovely, quaint streets & buildings where we were staying. The streets are narrow and resemble pedestrian streets here so we weren't as aware as we should have been. Yes we got a few bells ringing alright! Such a fab place..
So I'm dropping my small fella to school this morning. There's a bus lane that's very tempting to use and every few mornings you'll find someone does. Well this morning, a car flew down the bus lane eager to save herself a minute when out pops a copper! Pulls her over and has a word. As I pull through the lights he's still talking to her. Bliss