New minimum distance for cars passing cyclists to be introduced.

[mathepac]

What I do need though is some protection from the morons who drive the narrower parts of the Enniskerry Road @100kph+ and overtake me in a dangerous and life threatening manner as I commute daily.

You have two choices 1) seek assistance from the Guards to police the route properly 2) stop using a section of road that sounds dangerous if they continue to refuse to police it properly.

Proper policing is the answer, not stupid laws that cannot and will not be policed. e.g. L-plates on motorways anyone, unaccompanied learners, drivers and cyclists passing through amber lights at pedestrian crossings, parking on footpaths, in unloading zones, disabled parking spots, tractors with no lights, trailers with no lights, cars with one headlight, commercial vehicles with no rear lights, buses and artics exceeding speed limits, the inability to turn right properly or use roundabouts correctly - breaches of existing laws, but where's the policing? Where are the prosecutions for breaches of the existing laws? Will we now witness a new force of cops armed with 1.5 mtr t-squares in the middle of the roads? "Licence and insurance, please. You breached the safe passing distance by 2mm there me bucko, if I catch you again you'll be for the high-jump."

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Will we now witness a new force of cops armed with 1.5 mtr t-squares in the middle of the roads? "Licence and insurance, please. You breached the safe passing distance by 2mm there me bucko, if I catch you again you'll be for the high-jump."

So you are arguing that because the Gardaí don't enforce some laws, we should not have them at all?

This would not be that difficult to enforce. Where there is a cycle space marked on the road, draw another line 1.5 m parallel to it.

Put up a camera and prosecute any driver who crosses over that line when passing a cyclist.

3 points on the license would significantly improve drivers' respect for the safety of cyclists.

Brendan

 

[MrEarl]

Well, you could limit narrow roads to cyclists only.

Or make them one way with a counterflow for cyclists.

Or maybe drivers just treat cyclists as they do other cars which might damage them - they keep their distance.

There are loads of solutions.

Brendan

All perfectly sensible as part of a big picture solution Mr. Burgess.

Even from a motorists point of view, I see benefits to changing a lot of Dublin City's streets into one way for traffic purposes. I think it would massively improve the flow of traffic. Then dividing the available road space between motor vehicle and bike looks a more realistic option to me (given there is no need for 2 bike lanes, just the one).

Sorry Leper - this is the bit which the anti-cyclist brigade don't get.

A badly driven car is very dangerous which is why we have extensive laws, insurance and some enforcement of those laws.

If I carelessly crash my bicycle into a car, I will suffer more than the car driver.

If a car crashes into me on my bicycle, I will suffer more than the car driver.

That is why enforcing good laws against bad driving is more important than enforcing bad laws against cyclists.

Brendan

I think you also need to consider if a cyclists crashes into a pedestrian.

I've seen it happen first hand, on more than one occasion, and while results were not fatal (thankfully), they were bad.

Badly laid out bicycle lanes, where the space is shared between cyclists and pedestrians, will increase the frequency of these accidents. Part of the S2S route springs to mind, as I type this post.

 

[mathepac]

So you are arguing that because the Gardaí don't enforce some laws, we should not have them at all?

No, don't forget that the unenforced laws, samples of which I mention above, don't figure in the headline crime numbers the top cops and the Ministers like to brag about through Leo's SCU and other avenues. They use the sound bites and photo ops to highlight their supernatural abilities to be "proactive in solving crime".

Another Mickey Mouse law will not save lives, not cyclists', not pedestrians', or motorists' but enforcing the existing laws that are being ignored wholesale will. Cameras by all means, but at road junctions, pedestrian crossings, school crossings, accident black spots, etc. Oh and registration numbers on the reflective jackets cyclists should be forced to wear, as well as red lights at the rear and white lights to the front as well as reflective pedals as in the UK, especially on the "Sean Kelly Specials" that frequent the roads in packs.

It is regrettable that 14 cyclists died on our roads last year as far as I can establish. Does anyone know how many pedestrians were killed? I can't see a new unpoliced and unenforceable law saving any lives; I guarantee that my proposals could. Simply enforce the existing laws on Road Safety, oh and get the RSA to wake up and produce a road safety and theory testing document to the standard of the UK's Highway Code.

 

[Firefly]

OK Guys. I give up. Let's keep up the "Motorists are dreadful road users" - "Cyclists cause little or no accidents" - "Pedestrians are always in the right" -

Regarding collisions between cyclists & pedestrians, there should be almost zero scope for there ever being a collision between the two. Cyclists should not be on a footpath. Pedestrians should be on the footpath. Where no footpath exists, pedestrians should be walking against the traffic and so should be on the other side of the road to the cyclist. The only time the two should ever have the chance of meeting is when the pedestrian crosses the road......

 

[Brendan Burgess]

I think you also need to consider if a cyclists crashes into a pedestrian.

Again, you are missing the point.

Of course, it's not good if a cyclist crashes into a pedestrian, but the damage is not remotely as serious as when a car crashes into a pedestrian.

Applying the same rules to bicycles and cars is not justified. The damage by a bike doing something illegal is so much less.

I have nearly crashed into pedestrians on a few occasions - but only because they just stepped out onto the road or they crashed a pedestrian crossing.



Brendan

 

[mathepac]

Of course, it's not good if a cyclist crashes into a pedestrian, but the damage is not remotely as serious as when a car crashes into a pedestrian.

Applying the same rules to bicycles and cars is not justified. The damage by a bike doing something illegal is so much less.

If a modern car and a bike travelling at the same speed collide with a pedestrian, the bike will certainly do more damage. Modern cars are designed to inflict as little injury as possible on pedestrians up to certain speeds. They have exterior impact absorption panels designed in. Bikes, on the other hand, are just collections of sharp lumps of metal, brake levers, spokes, handlebars, sprockets, chain, pedals which are not designed to minimise injury to pedestrians.

Modern cars also have collision avoidance technology built in, with automatic brakes, road position monitoring and other technologies bikes may never have to protect pedestrians.

Another potential pedestrian killer are the bull bars fitted illegally to work vehicles. They've been illegal for years, apparently removed to get through DOE/NCT tests and then replaced. They often have off-road lights fitted to them which are also illegal on public roads. Why no policing?

 

[Leper]

I reckon the only thing in which most of us agree is that the new laws will not be enforced. What is the point in having new laws that won't be enforced? Another Sacred Cow for Dear Ol' Ireland, Another Victory for the Clown in the martyrdom of the road users. The Gardai can't come to terms with the Drink Driving laws or even the use of breathalysers. And our cyclists think the new laws are a runner!

Until the motorists, cyclists, pedestrians change the way they use the roads the carnage will continue. We need zero tolerance of motorists speeding through red traffic lights, cyclists demanding more than their fair share of the road and pedestrians with more cop-on. Less of the Sacred Cows and more Common Sense please.

I wish to reiterate, we have to start somewhere. Now is a good time.

 

[noproblem]

In fairness very few motorists break the red lights when compared to cyclists and most especially pedestrians, who come across as having a divine right to do so. I cannot understand what 50 and 100 guards in garda stations do every day, they're not on the beat, you hardly ever see them, squad cars are in places where they shouldn't be????? Laws are on the books, why aren't they enforced? It beats Banagher, as Pat Rabbitte once said. I know people give out about speeding vans with cameras, but they're brilliant and i'd love if more were put out there. Same with guards or is being on the beat and enforcing simple laws beneath the force now?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

If a modern car and a bike travelling at the same speed collide with a pedestrian, the bike will certainly do more damage.

Hi mathepac

That is very interesting.

I will confirm it the next time that I am cycling on the footpath at 80kph and crash into someone.

Brendan

 

[dereko1969]

If a modern car and a bike travelling at the same speed collide with a pedestrian, the bike will certainly do more damage.

I'm really going to have to go back to school and look again at stuff if the weight of a modern car has no effect on the impact on a pedestrian. But you obviously know better.

 

[dereko1969]

In fairness very few motorists break the red lights when compared to cyclists and most especially pedestrians, who come across as having a divine right to do so. I cannot understand what 50 and 100 guards in garda stations do every day, they're not on the beat, you hardly ever see them, squad cars are in places where they shouldn't be????? Laws are on the books, why aren't they enforced? It beats Banagher, as Pat Rabbitte once said. I know people give out about speeding vans with cameras, but they're brilliant and i'd love if more were put out there. Same with guards or is being on the beat and enforcing simple laws beneath the force now?

That's just rubbish. I work near Leeson Street, every single sequence will see cars going through the red light, these aren't amber gamblers the light is fully red. There are also some cyclists who go through but something to consider is that the sequence usually doesn't give a person on a bike enough time to cross the junction, so the light will be amber when the cyclist goes through but by the time they've crossed the pedestrian lights can often be green.
Even when Garda are in proximity they often don't do anything.

 

[RETIRED2017]

Hi mathepac then

That is very interesting.

I will confirm it the next time that I am cycling on the footpath at 80kph and crash into someone.

Brendan

I have being following this tread along with watching how people behave walking cycling and driving since a very good childhood friend got killed cycling ;

Back in my younger days in the late sixties I used to cycle to work along with this friend and others around my own age who used to cycle to Secondary School before free travel came in .

We used to cycle in a group but we would always spread out into single file going around dangerous bends on the road you would do the same thing if a car or truck was travelling in the same direction if it was narrow you would pull in or slow down to a speed just above what was needed to stay on your Bicycle back then cars trucks also slowed down and carefully passed you bye. .Back then there were not as many cars on the road but they were travelling a lot slower pace back then cyclists were also travelling at a lot slower speed back then ,

I would say back then most car /truck drivers we cyclist once who had to share the Road with people walking/cycling/driving they knew the car/truck would do the most damage and all needed to be aware and take note of each other when using the road back then all left plenty of time out to slow down when being passing or overtaking one another,

Whether you are cycling driving or walking and you are breaking red lights you are taking chances and putting your life in danger .I am Shocked at the posters who do not see a connection between people breaking the law at the most controlled part of our road network you can be sure they are taking bigger chances with there life every day on less controlled sections,

Since the early seventies I have owned a car full time I still cycle the experience from using the road as a cyclist now is the speed and amount of cars on the road leaves it very dangerous for cyclist or walkers ,

I have a Daughter who is married and living in Germany since around 1998 they moved to Austria around 2008 she cycles to work most of the time when I visit my wife and I cycle quite a lot in both Country's Cyclist motorist have a lot more respect for each other you can see this respect starting once they Children start to use the road along with there parents around two years old,

 

[mathepac]

Until the motorists, cyclists, pedestrians change the way they use the roads the carnage will continue.

The only way to change behaviour is for it to have serious adverse consequences for the transgressor and right now as we agree there are no adverse consequences, thus the bad behaviour continues or escalates. Bring back Guards on the streets or use monitored cameras.

 

[mathepac]

I will confirm it the next time that I am cycling on the footpath at 80kph and crash into someone.

If you feel your selective quote represents the thrust of my post then go for it!

 

[mathepac]

I'm really going to have to go back to school and look again at stuff if the weight of a modern car has no effect on the impact on a pedestrian.

You do that, then read my post again when you understand the notions of kinetic energy including elastic and inelastic collisions and energy transformation.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

If you feel your selective quote represents the thrust of my post then go for it!

How is it selective?

You said that modern cars do less damage than cyclists going at the same speed.

I was trying to point out how ridiculous that is. Bicycles and cars don't go at the same speed.

Cars, even the most modern cars, are far deadlier than bicycles, even the oldest bicycles.

Brendan

 

[mathepac]

But cars can do travel at the same speeds as bicycles and slower sometimes in lots of urban areas, 10/15/20/30 kph, especially with motorised traffic gridlocked and the introduction of lowered speed limits adjacent to schools and certain pedestrian-heavy thorough-fares. Bikes, and cyclists off their own little easy-listening cocoons at times, still lack the collision detection and collision avoidance mechanisms fitted to modern cars.

[EDIT] I was late finding this https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/dublin-traffic-ranked-slowest-moving-12769350

so 7.5 kph on average in Dublin metropolitan area, "peak hour speeds of 5.5km/h"

 

[Leo]

so 7.5 kph on average in Dublin metropolitan area, "peak hour speeds of 5.5km/h"

Those are average journey speeds, the number and close proximity of junctions/ lights in Dublin where cars are stationary greatly lowers those numbers. When Dublin and other LAs run covert speed monitoring (those parallel black pipes across the road), they record 80-90% of motorists breaking the speed limits. Parkmore in Galway won with 98% exceeding the limits in the 2016 survey.

 

[Leo]

If a modern car and a bike travelling at the same speed collide with a pedestrian, the bike will certainly do more damage. Modern cars are designed to inflict as little injury as possible on pedestrians up to certain speeds. They have exterior impact absorption panels designed in. Bikes, on the other hand, are just collections of sharp lumps of metal, brake levers, spokes, handlebars, sprockets, chain, pedals which are not designed to minimise injury to pedestrians.

In most real world cases, a 1500+kg car hitting a pedestrian will inflict more damage to a pedestrian than a <15kg bike.

In the real world, in most pedestrian / cyclist collisions, it is the cyclist that comes off worst as the majority of such collisions are glancing blows that merely bump the pedestrian, but throw the cyclist to the ground. Ask anyone who works in A&E.

Even assuming a head on collision in both cases, the kinetic energy carried by a car will be 20+ times that of a bike and cyclist combined.

The mass of the objects involved is a very significant factor in the rate of kinetic energy transfer. The relative weight of bike & rider versus pedestrian will be similar, so the forces experienced by both parties will be very similar. In the case of a car hitting a pedestrian, the acceleration forces experienced by the pedestrian are many times greater due to their low relative weight.