My sister wants to sell the family home, but I don't

Even if you found someone willing to buy 50% of the house and accept 100% of the rent you are then getting into the tax implications of gifting a legal stranger the 50% of rent you would be entitled to. I'm thinking they would be subject to CAT on the 450 pm you would be gifting them (or income tax if Revenue take the view that you are paying them for the right to keep 50% of the house) which is a tax bill of 1,350 a year.
They would roughly break even for tax purposes on their half but if interest rates rise they would be losing money.
You would also be at the whim of any financial institution they default on repayments to which chooses to get a judgement mortgage on the house and could even force a sale.
In short, not a runner.
Sybil
 
I think you'll have to face the fact that you'll have to sell.

You haven't the funds to buy out your sister. She wants the cash so selling is your only option.

Sentimentality won't solve it for you.
 
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Put it up for sale and if you get a half decent offer take it. This may not be what you want to hear but its the only option you have.

I was involved in a family situation where one brother wanted to hold on to property for sentimental reasons while all the rest (& and there were quite a few!) wanted to sell - not through lack of sentiment or not caring for parents but purely through economic need - we sold - it was the right thing to do. Even the outlier now agrees.

Getting involved in the kind of schemes you are thinking of is pure fantasy and a recipe for disaster.
 
PaddyBloggit said:
You haven't the funds to buy out your sister. She wants the cash so selling is your only option.
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Possibly so. Possibly not so.

PaddyBloggit said:
Sentimentality won't solve it for you.
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I have no idea what you mean by that. There's nothing wrong with sentimentality - which prevails even amongst people who say things like "sentimentality won't solve it for you". Could we get past this please? This is the danger with divulging anything of a personal nature on forums: I'm looking for advice on the issues, not bizzare assumptions about my personality. Thanks.
 
Mrs Vimes said:
Even if you found someone willing to buy 50% of the house and accept 100% of the rent you are then getting into the tax implications of gifting a legal stranger the 50% of rent you would be entitled to. I'm thinking they would be subject to CAT on the 450 pm you would be gifting them (or income tax if Revenue take the view that you are paying them for the right to keep 50% of the house) which is a tax bill of 1,350 a year.
They would roughly break even for tax purposes on their half but if interest rates rise they would be losing money.
You would also be at the whim of any financial institution they default on repayments to which chooses to get a judgement mortgage on the house and could even force a sale.
In short, not a runner.
Sybil
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Thanks a lot for the insight. Having done a bit of research lately it would appear that prices have dropped like a stone in the past 3 months: either that or whomever I was talking to before was on the extreme margins of reality. Probably not the best time to sell, and I can see the place easily being on the market for a year.

Incidentally, I wonder what happens if the valuation price is nowhere near being reached? She seems to think the place is worth 300k., so if she digs her heels in on that and this drags on a couple of years I'm afraid that existing creditors could force a sale?
 
When I talk about sentimentality I use it in the sense that the heart rather than the head is dictating your approach - my point is that you simply don't have the money to buy your sister out and you don't have any way of getting that money.

If you go by your head ... you'll sell.

In your original post you say:

<snip> I don't care if I end up not living in my father's house, as long as I retain half ownership with an option to buy. I don't want money out of the house, <snip>

..... that's where I see the heart ruling the head. You have to look clinically at your situation ... and looking at yours .... you can't afford the house unless you sell the other one.

Either way .... best of luck with whatever you decide.

You have my two cents. I'll leave it at that.
 
WicklowMan said:
I haven't quite worked out the detail, but on the face of it how about getting someone to buy out her half? A few of my friends have advised against this, but believe me it couldn't be any more a disaster than my sister being joint owner!
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Hi Wicklow Man

I am astonished that none of us came up with this solution before. In fact, I went back over my posts to check I had not suggested it! I can only assume I was confused by who owned what.

Obviously the ideal is that you buy it yourself, but getting someone else to buy her share is certainly an idea. Not easy to find someone, but well worth trying.

I know of a case where a brother and sister inherited a house. He badly needed money. She refused to sell and refused to even discuss it. I don't know the full story, but he would have needed to go to the High Court to force through a sale eventually. A friend of mine heard the story and bought the brother's share at a huge discount to its real value and decided to toughen it out with the sister. While it was a great stroke, given the discount he got, they have just recently agreed the sale of the property and he has just got his money back.
 
Someone coming in to buy out her own half is what Wicklow Man suggested in his first post when he said:
" Basically what I need to do is replace my sister with someone less feverent for money and with a buy - back option + commission. Can anyone think of a way of working this in a logical fashion? I was thinking in terms of renting my father's house, in a partnership with someone for a set period. I don't mind if I'm out of the place for 15 - 20 years. It's got to be a good deal for someone?".

Maybe the title thread should be changed to - Is there anybody out there who wants to buy a half share of a house in Bray?
 
I cant honestly see why anyone would want to buy half the house. The OP does not want to sell his half at all, he just wants someone else to own the other half for as long as he cant afford to own it himself. If someone bought the other half and some way down the line wanted out of the situation and the OP still wasnt in a position to buy them out, then the same situation would be back again. Why would anyone realistically want to put themselves in that position? The sale or not of the house is always going to be dictated by the OPs emotions, and getting into a business agreement with someone making emotional decisions is a bad idea.
 
PaddyBloggit said:
You have to look clinically at your situation ... and looking at yours .... you can't afford the house unless you sell the other one.
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Thanks Paddy, in fairness I'd probably say the same thing to someone myself on reflection. A lot of sh ... stuff going on at the moment, apologies for being somewhat curt.


truthseeker said:
The sale or not of the house is always going to be dictated by the OPs emotions, and getting into a business agreement with someone making emotional decisions is a bad idea.
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I can see your point and normally I'd agree but as far as I'm concerned the sale of the house as it currently stands would be disasterous on both an emotional and financial level.

There are of course a lot of unanswered questions ... basically I'm working off the following logic. As a creative type, every good thing I do normally has a catalogue of rubbish behind it. You wade through the no - brainers and eventually arrive at something good from the process. In other words, I'm not purporting to come on here with a good idea / ideas, but rather am processing through everything - daft as it might read.

Thanks.
 
Hi WicklowMan,

I don't expect you to answer this directly, but it seems to me that this problem might well be best resolved through discussion and negotiation with your sister, with the aim of achieving a mutual understanding of each other's positions in relation to the property, and through that arriving at a mutually satisfactory outcome.

Maybe this idea is hopelessly optimistic, but if there is any remote chance of success, it might be worthwhile setting up some sort of mediation mechanism, perhaps through an independent third party or mutually respected go-between.

Good luck with it anyhow and I hope it works out for you.
 
WicklowMan said:
I can see your point and normally I'd agree but as far as I'm concerned the sale of the house as it currently stands would be disasterous on both an emotional and financial level.
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I think unfortunately Truthseeker was spot on. You have to ask yourself why a business partner would want to take on your sister's share. Even if this was still the bubble it doesn't sound like a great deal for them. You understandably will have an emotional attachment but for them it's a business arrangement. What if they need to liquidate in 3/5/10 years and you aren't in a position to buy them out? What if they want to alter the property in a way that you don't like? Also not many investors are going to be confident of capital appreciation in this market. What seems like an indecent price this year might seem quite reasonable in years to come.

There is another possibility here. Your sister may insist on putting the house on the market. And it simply may not sell or at least receive offers acceptable to either of you in this climate. At that point your sister may be more open to other options. Ofcourse no guarantee this scenario will happen.
 
T McGibney said:
Maybe this idea is hopelessly optimistic, but if there is any remote chance of success, it might be worthwhile setting up some sort of mediation mechanism, perhaps through an independent third party or mutually respected go-between.
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Thanks McGibney,

No, some good thinking there. I think the mediation could end up being a viable option ... it wouldn't be the first time either. Unfortunately there's another complication - her partner. He's pretty much backseat driving the whole thing. When the dust settles it'd make a fantastic episode of Melrose place! Seriously, I sometimes have to pinch myself ... talk about a strange situation.

noel_c said:
I think unfortunately Truthseeker was spot on. You have to ask yourself why a business partner would want to take on your sister's share. Even if this was still the bubble it doesn't sound like a great deal for them.
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Quite true, that really is the clincher ... how to package it in a way that's genuinely of use to both parties. I've far from figured that one out. I do have a friend who has a pub / commercial premises and a couple of houses that have paid themselves off through rent. He's no fool having done most of his work back in the 1980's, so I think I'll be giving him a shout soon.

noel_c said:
What if they need to liquidate in 3/5/10 years and you aren't in a position to buy them out? What if they want to alter the property in a way that you don't like? Also not many investors are going to be confident of capital appreciation in this market. What seems like an indecent price this year might seem quite reasonable in years to come.
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On the first point, it's probably one thing I don't have much control over - it's down to chance. What I can say is that I'll be on an even keel or dead trying. Regarding values I agree. I'm hoping - and hope is the word - that some semi - reality will enter the market over the next nine months or so. Otherwise it's very hard to see it happening at all.

noel_c said:
There is another possibility here. Your sister may insist on putting the house on the market. And it simply may not sell or at least receive offers acceptable to either of you in this climate. At that point your sister may be more open to other options. Ofcourse no guarantee this scenario will happen.
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Very good observation, and right now the most likely outcome. Even the absolute show-houses are staying on the market around here for ages. Generally what happens is, after a year and two substantial pricedrops they sell. Trying to estimate real values right now is like throwing darts with a blindfold on. The word from a long established Estate agent yesterday was that the only stuff that's shifting is rock - bottom.
 
Tony,maybe there is more to this than you are telling us. You talk about existing creditors forcing a sale? Who has the debt? Was your father’s only asset his house or did he leave any savings / shares ? You say that your credit rating is screwed for 5 years, does this mean that you have been in trouble yourself financially?

Your sister is entitled to her half share. You should consider yourself fortunate that you have lived rent free in your Father’s house for 16 years, and are presumably continuing to live there rent free, not paying her her half. Your father helped you out, as you say, with the property in Tip, and now you are potentially going to inherit around €100,000. The more you delay at the moment, the less that figure will be.

Selling the house would probably help you move on emotionally and physically. Perhaps some form of counselling for yourself would help you come to terms with the situation, and this could be the start of a new phase of your life.

Sal
 
You mention that your sister is only interested in the money. From what you have written I think you are being unfair to her. You mentioned in your first post that despite 5 or 6 visits to a solicitor to make a will your father actually never made one.

It would seem to me your father knew exactly what he was doing by not making one and therefore you and your sister jointly owning the property after his death.

So stop putting your sister down, she is entitled to her share whether you like it not. Either you can buy her out or not, it's not her fault.
 
If your sister is playing hardball I would ask your solicitor if you are entitled to squatters rights as you have lived there 16 years.

I would be looking at that if she was looking to putting the boot in when you are struggling and she does not seem rational enought to come to some arrangement with.

It sounds like she did not see your dad much or is this a misinterpretation? If this is the case and you paid bills and cared for your father then I would look into this too.

Not sure if either these work as I am not a legal eagle, if you have a claim for squatters rights after 20 years change the locks and sit tight!!
 
The house wasn't his to squat in while his father was alive so I can't see how it should apply here.
 
"squatting" does not mean not paying rent. It means living in an unoccupied house without paying rent.

From dictionary.com

to settle on or occupy property, esp. otherwise unoccupied property, without any title, right, or payment of rent.
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As he was there with the permission of his father, he was not squatting.

and from wikipedia

Adverse possession is a process by which premises can change ownership. It is a common law concept concerning the title to real property (land and the fixed structures built upon it). By adverse possession, title to another's real property can be acquired without compensation, by holding the property in a manner that conflicts with the true owner's rights for a specified period. For example, "squatter's rights" are a specific form of adverse possession.
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