Motor Tax Bands

[werner]

People need to get real about what the problem is.

Yes and if enough people got "real" about the damage to our economy created by inflationary motor tax increases that achieves zippo, zilch, nothing at all to alleviate the increase in C02 gases worldwide.

By 2014 China's car ownership will rank 4th in the world e.g. only seven Chinese out of 1,000 own a car, a quota that the US reached in 1915. Yet by 2014, total car ownership in China is estimated to rank fourth in the world after the US, Japan and Germany with a quota of more than 50 owners per 1,000 Chinese.

Expect 55 million cars by 2010 in China

Now the "Greens" come along with damaging economice policies that hurt their own supporters that have already bought into low emission vehichles!

If they wanted to lower carbon emissions and reduce energy demand all they would have needed to do would be to supply a real incentive to install loft insulation. Ireland has a pathethic level of insulation in homes. It would reduce carbons emissions by orders of magnitude higher than taxing their own supporters more to achieve nothing except to damage the economy.


I suggest people should get "Get real" and see how damaging these "Green" policies are to a slowing down economy like Irelands!

 

[alcyone]

Werner, that's a good point about the growing Chinese economy, and you could also say that the USA government takes a back seat in relation to low emission policies.

But however valid this may be it does not absolve us from the need to modify our usage of fossil fuels.

You make a really good point about house insulation. A high percentage of oil sold in Ireland is for central heating. This can be drastically reduced by investing in insulation.

You can change road tax overnight, but you can't change people's attitude and mindset on fuel usage overnight. That takes time, and I think the changes in taxation are a good start.

As an observation on the dissatisfaction shown on this forum with the new tax system, it is difficult not to feel that the people who are peeved the most seem upset by the monetary disadvantage they may be at under the new system. This would indicate that the primary reason they purchased so called "low emission" cars in the first place was to save their pockets, not to save the planet.

So use Homer Simpson logic on the problem; stop griping about it and buy a new car that benefits under the new tax. They will be able to save money, help the slowing economy and save the planet all at the same time.

 

[michaelm]

People need to get real about what the problem is.

Expect 55 million cars by 2010 in China

I'm highly dubious about anthropogenic warming. But if it's true and car emissions are a big factor then surely the problem will be self-limiting, if we are to believe the dire warnings about 'Peak Oil'. If the oil runs out in 10 or 20 years then it won't matter how many cars are in China or India or the West as they won't be running on fossil fuel.

 

[alcyone]

I'm sold on the global warming theory primarily because the current rate of change is fairly rapid, in climate terms.

Like you Michael, I'm a sceptic. I remember in previous oil shortages being told it would all be used up by 2010. We're at 2008 now and there are no signs of dropping production.

As the cost per barrel rises, it then becomes economic to drill for more difficult stocks.

Naturally enough, it is a finite resource. I would not hold my breath that it will all be used up in 30 or 40 years though.

 

[werner]

I'm highly dubious about anthropogenic warming. But if it's true and car emissions are a big factor then surely the problem will be self-limiting, if we are to believe the dire warnings about 'Peak Oil'. If the oil runs out in 10 or 20 years then it won't matter how many cars are in China or India or the West as they won't be running on fossil fuel.

Any educated layman or anyone with any scientific background should be sceptical of anthropogenic warming. Here in Ireland it is been pushed as a fact.

I highlighted the car issue with China to show the total fallacy of the increased "Green" taxes having any possible effect on climate change. This is simply a revenue raising exercise for the government and face saving for the Greens.

The biggest threat to Irelands economy and prosperity at the beginning of the 21st century is not the property market or the fall out of sub prime lending.

It is the threat of ambitious "Green" environmentalism becoming accepted as fact. The Greens imagine their ideas and arguments on climate change to be an undisputable truth and use and abuse dubious statistics along with media manipulation coupled with PR stunts like cycling ministers to exert pressure on the electorate to achieve their goals. Their way is to spread fear and panic by asserting Earth's climate to be under serious man made threat.

They continue to push policymakers to adopt anti economic measures, impose un-scientific arbitrary limits, regulations, increase in taxes and prohibitions, further restrictions on everyday human activities and make people subject to omnipotent bureaucratic decision-making begat by Green religious zealots.

Do we want Ireland to prosper or not?

The only fair tax for motorists is a tax on fuel based on the polluter pays principle, but of course the Greens abandoned that policy long ago.

 

[FMW]

As an observation on the dissatisfaction shown on this forum with the new tax system, it is difficult not to feel that the people who are peeved the most seem upset by the monetary disadvantage they may be at under the new system. This would indicate that the primary reason they purchased so called "low emission" cars in the first place was to save their pockets, not to save the planet.

Yes, this is a good observation but it's not completely true. After their house, for most people, their car is the biggest drain on financial resources. In my case, I chose an economical car (2006 Skoda Octavia TDi) because I though that it was the sensible and correct thing to do. It cost me more to buy than the equivalent petrol one and it has also cost me more to tax than the equivalent petrol one would have. Offsetting some of this is the benfit of better fuel economy, but it doesn't actually break even unless you drive a lot of miles (I just about achieve the break even point).

I wasn't expecting any favours from John Gormley, but then again, I wasn't expecting to be kicked in the teeth either !! I expect a lot of people feel the same way.

 

[alcyone]

Totally true. I love cars and spend a lot of money on them. We are screwed here in Ireland. It is easily the second major expense for all households.

There is a good reason why they have to run parallel tax systems; there is no CO2 data available before around '97, and they only have complete data in the last couple of years.

With many cars lasting for 10 to 15 years these days, they can't adopt the new system for the majority of '90s cars or earlier models.

Here's a suggestion:

There is no reason why they could not apply the new CO2 bands to any cars registered in the last 3 years, because the data is there. That way the more economical cars will immediately get the benefit of the new lower rates. The cost of this will be paid for by the higher CO2 emitters having to pay higher tax.

Any farther back you are going to hit problems with incomplete data, change of models and so on.

But it could easily be done, and we should press the case through the AA and others to make them apply it from July onwards.

This simple thing would immediately validate the choice of those early adapters who recently bought an economy vehicle, and will allow the SUV brigade 6 months to consider changing to a lower CO2 band vehicle.

 

[popol]

A very well worded letter. They would have already looked at and disregarded your approach to CO2 tax on the petrol. There is no chance this method will be adopted, even though anybody who looks at the numbers will agree it is the fairest way of implementing the "polluter pays" principle.

The two primary and non "revenue neutral" reasons for ignoring this fairest method of CO2 tax implementation are as follows:

1) It will put the consumer price index through the roof.
2) It will kill the revenue leakage from the North of Ireland with everybody north of the border currently buying millions of pounds worth of fuel in the South and bringing in "free" revenue.

Other than that, it's perfect.
[Rule Number 1: this is all about money, not green issues]

How about introducing it on a phased basis over the term of this government then. 25% levy in y1, y2 etc and at that the same time a 25% annual reduction in road tax. That would soften the effect of the CPI. At least then we could see some progress in the direction of the polluter paying and it allows everyone to move toward economical cars as we all begin to feel the pinch.
I'd also love to know what the public service bill is to run the motor tax office - they could be redeployed to something useful.

 

[Guest127]

I'm old enough to remember the abolition of road tax and putting it onto petrol prices ( around 1977 I think, certainly in Jack Lynchs' government). few years later its back in at a very small rate around £20 per annum. Same thing would happen again. some year the government will be stuck for a few bob and everybody now used to price of petrol ( + the carbon taxes when they are implemented , an excuse to gather another few bob) the motor tax would be reintroduced at a low rate. sort of like putting a frog into luke warm water. 5 years after that it would be back to full rate.

 

[werner]

I agree michaelm, i have made this point repeatedly to anyone who would listen to me.

Here is my letter....

To: minister@environ.ie
CC: taoiseach@taoiseach.ie, fergus.odowd@finegael.ie, dominic.hannigan@oir.ie

Re: Punishing citizens who were proactive about lowering their car emissions
cc: askaboutmoney.com Budget 2008 forum
(http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=69742)

Dear Minister,

I am delighted to see that this budget includes measures to
disincentivise (spelling?) people from using cars with higher emissions.
Pollution and energy shortages are some of the biggest challenges facing
Ireland inc. over the next few years. In my opinion it is correct to use
carrots and sticks in this area.

One side affect from your proposal, is that the group of people who have
been proactive by already choosing low emission/fuel efficient cars will
suffer financially. By applying a lower VRT, and lower tax only to newly
registered, fuel efficient cars, you are effectively reducing the value
of the cars of citizens who have exercised personal proactivity in this
area. The same applies in reverse, citizens who have purchased high
emission vehicles will see their car value increase.

This is an abhorrent side effect for a proposal aimed at encouraging
people to reduce emissions, and discouraging people from using high
emission vehicles.

At a macro level, we need citizens & companies more than ever to be
proactive about energy use, pensions etc., therefore it seems very
inappropriate to punish people, who should be commended for being proactive.

I would like to see your proposal reward existing owners of low
emission/fuel efficient vehicles ( I would propose that you use the NCT
test results where suitable certificates are not available), or at the
very least be revenue neutral for these citizens.

I find it unacceptable that the value of previously registered cars with
low emissions will fall, while the value of previously registered cars
with high emissions will rise.

I would like to hear how you propose to resolve this anomaly.

Is mise le meas,
Sean xxxx.
P.S.
As an aside, I am unhappy that you did not choose a straightforward
revenue neutral system like scrapping road tax, and adding the required
number of cents to a liter of fuel. This would target/incentivise
directly the largest polluters, free up the entire road tax
group/department (a considerable saving for the state), free up Gardai
time(a considerable saving & benefit for the state), increase compliance
(by definition), simplify our taxation system(by definition), and
improve productivity/work-life balance by saving the average employed
citizen 1.5 hours of effort per anum.

Public opinion has forced the Gov to defer their pay rises

Public opinion has forced the Gov to defer the School water charges
Ireland
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1218/water.html

"Schools should wait to pay water bills - Ahern


The Taoiseach has told the Dáil that the Government is considering the implementation of a transition period governing the payment of water charges by schools.Bertie Ahern said that this period might extend to 2009 and would involve flat rate payments by schools"

The Government can be forced to adjust the rip off Motor Tax changes as well, to one that will be environmentally friendly yet not create further damage to the economy

E-mail the news programs and your TD's now!

 

[upport]

Politicians will only react to adverse public opinion.Contact Joe Duffy,Gerry Ryan,Pat Kenny.Newstalk etc

 

[werner]

Politicians will only react to adverse public opinion.Contact Joe Duffy,Gerry Ryan,Pat Kenny.Newstalk etc

Excellent article highlighting the advers effect of the new Motor Tax rates ets here

[broken link removed]

"Two-tier motor tax system 'penalises unfairly'
Paddy Comyn
Motorists who already drive low-emission vehicles are criticising the new two-tier motor tax system, as they feel it penalises them unfairly for already owning a low-emission vehicle."

It appears it is becoming a live issue in the public domain now

 

[FMW]

Excellent article highlighting the advers effect of the new Motor Tax rates ets here

[broken link removed]

It appears it is becoming a live issue in the public domain now

Yes - great to see this. People need to keep making their views known in public though to keep pressure on the minister. Anyone reading this - please keep writing & e-mailing to the newspapers and the politicians and keep the pressure on to try to get rid of this particular anomaly.

 

[werner]

Yes - great to see this. People need to keep making their views known in public though to keep pressure on the minister. Anyone reading this - please keep writing & e-mailing to the newspapers and the politicians and keep the pressure on to try to get rid of this particular anomaly.

And here is a good article in the Irish Independent highlighting many of the issues raised!

http://www.independent.ie/national-...-uturn-as-tax-hits-clean-drivers-1255743.html

 

[FMW]

It seems that Mr. Gormless' new annual motor tax scheme is runnning into some trouble with the announcement that he's backdating the new (lower rates) for low emissions cars to 1st Jan 2008. This will be welcome news for those who bought such cars in the past 2 months, but it does nothing for those of us who bought them in 2007, 2006 & before. It seems that we're still going to be stuck indefinitely with higher tax rates and their consequent detrimental effect on the resale value of our low emissions cars. No doubt this change will be sold as making the system fairer - but how is it fair to someone who bought a low emissions car in 2006 and is stuck paying a multiple of the road tax which someone who buys the same car now ??

The real reason for the minister's change of heart is pressure from the SIMI who are seeing falling sales as many people were obviously waiting 'till after July 1st to purchase new cars.

So instead of a 2-tier system, it now seems we will have a a 2.5 tier one which is still as unfair as ever to those who have already chosen low emissions motoring. It's time to put some real pressure on this minister - everyone who has a low emissions car should be eligible to apply to have it taxable at the new rate. It can be done - the onus could be put on the owner to provide the necessary documentation (certificates of conformance are available from manufacturers for most cars since at least 2002) and extend real fair play to all. Come on Gormless, time to admint that you didn't get this right. Stop messing & fix it now.

 

[FMW]

It seems that Mr. Gormless' new annual motor tax scheme is runnning into some trouble with the announcement that he's backdating the new (lower rates) for low emissions cars to 1st Jan 2008. This will be welcome news for those who bought such cars in the past 2 months, but it does nothing for those of us who bought them in 2007, 2006 & before. It seems that we're still going to be stuck indefinitely with higher tax rates and their consequent detrimental effect on the resale value of our low emissions cars. No doubt this change will be sold as making the system fairer - but how is it fair to someone who bought a low emissions car in 2006 and is stuck paying a multiple of the road tax which someone who buys the same car now ??

The real reason for the minister's change of heart is pressure from the SIMI who are seeing falling sales as many people were obviously waiting 'till after July 1st to purchase new cars.

So instead of a 2-tier system, it now seems we will have a a 2.5 tier one which is still as unfair as ever to those who have already chosen low emissions motoring. It's time to put some real pressure on this minister - everyone who has a low emissions car should be eligible to apply to have it taxable at the new rate. It can be done - the onus could be put on the owner to provide the necessary documentation (certificates of conformance are available from manufacturers for most cars since at least 2002) and extend real fair play to all. Come on Gormless, time to admint that you didn't get this right. Stop messing & fix it now.

 

[kfk]

It seems that Mr. Gormless' new annual motor tax scheme is runnning into some trouble with the announcement that he's backdating the new (lower rates) for low emissions cars to 1st Jan 2008. This will be welcome news for those who bought such cars in the past 2 months, but it does nothing for those of us who bought them in 2007, 2006 & before. It seems that we're still going to be stuck indefinitely with higher tax rates and their consequent detrimental effect on the resale value of our low emissions cars. No doubt this change will be sold as making the system fairer - but how is it fair to someone who bought a low emissions car in 2006 and is stuck paying a multiple of the road tax which someone who buys the same car now ??

The real reason for the minister's change of heart is pressure from the SIMI who are seeing falling sales as many people were obviously waiting 'till after July 1st to purchase new cars.

So instead of a 2-tier system, it now seems we will have a a 2.5 tier one which is still as unfair as ever to those who have already chosen low emissions motoring. It's time to put some real pressure on this minister - everyone who has a low emissions car should be eligible to apply to have it taxable at the new rate. It can be done - the onus could be put on the owner to provide the necessary documentation (certificates of conformance are available from manufacturers for most cars since at least 2002) and extend real fair play to all. Come on Gormless, time to admint that you didn't get this right. Stop messing & fix it now.

Do you have a link for this story? I cannot find any news regarding this announcement. Where did you hear about it?

 

[eddie10]

It seems that Mr. Gormless' new annual motor tax scheme is runnning into some trouble with the announcement that he's backdating the new (lower rates) for low emissions cars to 1st Jan 2008. This will be welcome news for those who bought such cars in the past 2 months, but it does nothing for those of us who bought them in 2007, 2006 & before. It seems that we're still going to be stuck indefinitely with higher tax rates and their consequent detrimental effect on the resale value of our low emissions cars. No doubt this change will be sold as making the system fairer - but how is it fair to someone who bought a low emissions car in 2006 and is stuck paying a multiple of the road tax which someone who buys the same car now ??

The real reason for the minister's change of heart is pressure from the SIMI who are seeing falling sales as many people were obviously waiting 'till after July 1st to purchase new cars.

So instead of a 2-tier system, it now seems we will have a a 2.5 tier one which is still as unfair as ever to those who have already chosen low emissions motoring. It's time to put some real pressure on this minister - everyone who has a low emissions car should be eligible to apply to have it taxable at the new rate. It can be done - the onus could be put on the owner to provide the necessary documentation (certificates of conformance are available from manufacturers for most cars since at least 2002) and extend real fair play to all. Come on Gormless, time to admint that you didn't get this right. Stop messing & fix it now.

Does this mean that cars first registered in Ireland(imported second hand car from uk) from January 08 will have to pay the new rate of tax as opposed to the old one? Has the VRT date changed from july 08 as well?? I assume not..

 

[mik_da_man]

Yeah any more info on this?
I bought a car at the start of this month and taxed it.
If I waited till July the tax would be lower..
Does Mr Gormless plan on giving me a refund?

 

[FMW]

Do you have a link for this story? I cannot find any news regarding this announcement. Where did you hear about it?

Heard about it first on "Morning Ireland" this morning. There's a story in today's Irish Times.