Michael O' Leary on Climate Change

pat127 said:
What makes you so sure that we will find alternatives? Just because we 'have to' doesn't mean we will. Even if alternatives are found, how much will it cost us to change and have we enough time? Who will pay to develop the alternatives and will they share them with everyone else? What about countries which are too poor to pay? If we can't alleviate their famine problems as is, then we sure as hell won't be giving them alternative fuels. As fossil fuels become scarce what's to prevent nations going to war over them?
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There are as many alternatives as we want or need, they can be used large scale, but currently it's simply cheaper to take oil out of the ground and burn it.
 
Glenbhoy said:
There are as many alternatives as we want or need, they can be used large scale, but currently it's simply cheaper to take oil out of the ground and burn it.
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Perhaps you would be good enough to tell us the transportation fuel of the 22nd century.You talk of cheaper.....half the worlds poulation don`t use any oil because they can`t afford it and a great many of these people suffer regular food shortages.There will always be very rich people who can afford our dwindling energy supply.
Wars about scarce energy resoucres are not just a part of our future...these wars have been going on for about 100 years at least.
The iraqi oil workers went on strike to get 35$ a week or was it a month...it was reluctantly agreed by the americans....it is clear that it is not the host citizens that are getting the benefit of this natural resoucre.
Technology is not "ever upwards and onwards"...it has limits and we are in a situation that most technology has been developed and we are in an era of diminishig returns as regards new inventions not to mention resoucre depletion.
Experts reckon that aviation will become super expensive as oil becomes scarce....we`re talking definitely inside 50 years....flying will be reserved for the top 1% of the population with hopefully benefits for the climate.
 
Gabriel said:
Wouldn't we be far better off sitting down with some really clever people and designing vast underground tracts that might end up costing us 100 billion over 20 years or so? Maybe more? Wouldn't this be a really clever way of dealing with the ever growing needs of Greater Dublin? Imagine if you can an underground system that allowed you travel from Swords to anywhere in greater Dublin...in 20 minutes or less. Wow...wouldn't that be phenomenal? Is it conceivable? Yes it is. Is it possible? Yes it is. Is it ever going to happen?

Instead let's chuck a billion down the drain for the LUAS! A tram system that has two lines that don't even meet up! Wonderful!
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It's very easy to sit back & criticise the work of others. Have you had a good look at the [broken link removed]? Have you any proposals for funding these projects? Have you any proposals for handling the massive disruption to city centre life that would be caused by these projects?
 
RainyDay said:
It's very easy to sit back & criticise the work of others. Have you had a good look at the [broken link removed]? Have you any proposals for funding these projects? Have you any proposals for handling the massive disruption to city centre life that would be caused by these projects?
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Oh please! Where did the funding for the LUAS come from? Look at the disruption it caused. You talk about funding? This country is badly run. Perhaps if we used our money intelligently instead of squandering it as we do we wouldn't be in the mess we currently are in relation to transport. It's not just transport by the way. What about hospitals?

How much did the Spire project cost the state? Could that money have been put to better use? Does anyone really take these half hearted 'everyone get out of your car and onto crappy buses that take as long' campaigns seriously?

By the way I think it was this metro that O' Leary was talking about. It's a waste of money! Just because our government throw some money at something that transports people doesn't make it a good decision. Maybe they'll lay the tracks down on the wrong side again...or maybe in the wrong direction this time...that would be fun!

Incidentally...who's going to take a metro from Stephen's Green to the airport? Hardly needed is it? The integrated line in that report is worth something...perhaps. Too early to tell yet.
 
Again, it's very easy to rant & rave - but have you done a study of the transport needs for Dublin north? Or should we just build public policy around your personal views?
 
Gabriel said:
By the way I think it was this metro that O' Leary was talking about. It's a waste of money!

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The one in the link above? Why is it a waste of money?


Maybe they'll lay the tracks down on the wrong side again...or maybe in the wrong direction this time...that would be fun!

.
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Thet tracks on the wroing side?? Where??

Incidentally...who's going to take a metro from Stephen's Green to the airport? Hardly needed is it? The integrated line in that report is worth something...perhaps. Too early to tell yet.
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That line above will also connect with a dart stations in Drumcondra and Stephens Green. I think the projection is for about 20% of airport passengers to use the metro.
 
Gabriel said:
Wouldn't we be far better off sitting down with some really clever people and designing vast underground tracts that might end up costing us 100 billion over 20 years or so? Maybe more? Wouldn't this be a really clever way of dealing with the ever growing needs of Greater Dublin? Imagine if you can an underground system that allowed you travel from Swords to anywhere in greater Dublin...in 20 minutes or less. Wow...wouldn't that be phenomenal? Is it conceivable? Yes it is. Is it possible? Yes it is. Is it ever going to happen?
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The London Underground, the Paris Metro, the NYC subway - none of these were built in 20yrs... infact all three have been under construction and expansion for over a century now... the youngest being 103 years old (NYC one). These great systems were'nt drawn up in one elaborate integrated plan 100 years ago.

Once both the North Dublin Metro and [broken link removed] are competed as per the current plan, i'm sure new plans will be unveiled for another line, possible southbound. However it would be very foolish to plan such a line now, as when the time comes to build it (over a decade away) the route may not be the most feasible or sensible one to embark on next. Nobody can accurately predict where the greatest housing growth will occur in Dublin fifteen or so years into the future.

Gabriel said:
Incidentally...who's going to take a metro from Stephen's Green to the airport? Hardly needed is it?
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Please tell me you have actually looked at the maps. Firstly Stephen's Green offers a southbound luas connection. Secondly, the next stop, O'Connell Street, offers a Luas connection westbound. Straight away you have the entire metro and luas systems integrated.

Now, are you telling me hardly any airport user would like to pay say €2 or €3 to get to the city center in scarcly 20min? And once there to have direct connections to places as diverse as Sandyford, Tallaght and Dundrum? Are you telling me all those people who currently sit on a bus for an hour to get from Swords to city center will complain at of the construction of the 25min alternative? Next up, are the 10,000+ DCU students - a very large proportion of whom either commute or travel home regularly going to complain about a 10min service to both city center and to Drumcondra railway station?

Also, had you taken the time to look at the proposed metro west line you would note that upon its completion one will be able to hop on the metro in Dublin airport and emerge in a matter of minutes in such places as Blanchardstown and Tallaght.

Also had you taken account of the preposed Luas extensions you would realise this highly integrated system will extend asfar as Bray, Lucan, Cherrywood and Citywest.

The vast majority of this is scheduled for completion within the decade, never mind your 20yr proposal and the total cost is likely to be not far off the €100bn figure. Why do you complain about the lack of a paln for a large scale integrated Dublin transport system when there are plans already in motion for such a thing? I think your just one of these people who likes to complain about everything and criticize others from a distance.

Like I said before, when all these new lines are built, i'm sure a brand new transport expansion plan will be unveiled with more Luas lines, Metro lines, Suburban Rail lines, Bus fleet expansion and dart service upgrades.

Gabriel said:
How much did the Spire project cost the state?
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Just €4m actually, which is just 0.004% of the cost of your proposed €100bn metro system. At that price I think it was well worth it to create an internationally recognised focal center for the city. However on a debate about aviation pollution and public transport it baffles me how you managed to complain about both public health services and The Spire.
 
Just to point out the combine Luas, Metro, Dart and Suburban Rail systems will connect...

Via Metro
St Stephen's Green, O'Connell Bridge, Parnell Square , Mater Hospital, Drumcondra, Griffith Avenue, Dublin City University, Ballymun, Santry Demense, Metropark, Dublin Airport, Nevinstown, Swords, Seatown, Lissenhall, Tallaght, Clondalkin, Lucan, Blanchardstown, The Square, Liffey Valley Shopping Centre, Blanchardstown Shopping Centre, Blanchardstown Institute of Technology,

Via Luas

Sandyford, Stillorgan, Kilmacud, Balally, Dundrum, Windy Arbour, Milltown, Cowper, Beechwood, Ranelagh, Charlemont, Harcourt, St Stephen's Green, Tallaght, Tallaght Hospital, Cookstown, Belgard, Kingswood, Red Cow, Kylemore, Bluebel, Blackhorse, Drimnagh, Goldenbridge, Suir Road, Rialto, Fatima, St. James's Hospital, Heuston, National Museum of Ireland, Smithfield, Four Courts, Jervis, Abbey St, Busaras, Connolly Station, George's Dock, Mayor Square, Spencer Dock, Point Depot, Liffey Junction, Grangegroman, DIT Campus, Broadstone, City West, National Digital Park, Fettercairn, Cheeverstown, Cherrywood, Ballyfermot, Liffey Valley, Lucan, and Bray.

Dart/Suburban Rail

Malahide, Portmarnock, Howth, Sutton, Bayside, Howth Junction, Kilbarrack, Raheny, Harmonstown, Killester, Clontarf Road, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, Lansdowne Road, Sandymount, Sydney Parade, Booterstown, Blackrock, Seapoint, Salthill & Monkstown, Dún Laoghaire, Sandycove & Glasthule, Glenageary, Dalkey, Killiney, Shankill, Bray, Greystones, Dublin Connolly, Donabate, Rush and Lusk, Skerries, Balbriggan, Gormanston, Laytown, Drogheda, Dundalk, Kilcoole, Wicklow, Rathdrum, Arklow, Gorey, Dublin Heuston, Cherry Orchard, Clondalkin, Hazelhatch and Celbridge, Sallins and Naas, Newbridge, Kildare, Spencer Dock, Drumcondra, Broombridge, Ashtown, Castleknock, Coolmine, Clonsilla, Astown/Phoenix Park, Leixlip Confey, Leixlip Louisa Bridge, Maynooth, Kilcock, Enfield, Mullingar, Edgeworthstown, Longford

Note that some Luas lines will be fully upgradeable to Metro including Sandyford-Cherrywood. Park and Ride facilities will be built on the Bray line. Also note half of the cost of the Bray line is to be paid for by property developers. Also note much of the cost of the Citywest line will be paid for by developers. Also note many rail lines are due for electrification (including as far as Maynooth and Hazelhatch.) Also note several interconnectors will ensure you can reach the central transport hubs (O'Connell St, Houston, Connelly and Stephens Green) with relative ease from pretty much any of the above stations.

You wanted a highly integrated metro/luas/train system to serve all of Greater Dublin? I think that's a pretty darn good start - and at a price tag of well short of €15bn (even allowing for screwups pushing that to €20bn) I think it's a great plan to work off.
 
Glenbhoy said:
There are as many alternatives as we want or need,
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Yes, there are many potential alternatives, BUT....

Glenbhoy said:
they can be used large scale,
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upscaling them to the degree required to replace ALL or MOST of the energy generated from fossil fuels is a task that may prove to be insurmountable,

Glenbhoy said:
but currently it's simply cheaper to take oil out of the ground and burn it.
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Yes, and it's cheaper for a BIG reason. Withstanding nuclear fuels (e.g. Uranium and Plutonium), Oil packs an unsurpassed concentrated energy lunch that will be hard to replicate using alternative energy.

The world's four largest oilfields:

Ghawar, Saudi Arabia (~5 million barrels per day)
Cantarell, Mexico (~2 mbpd)
Burgan, Kuwait (~2 mbpd)
Daqing, China (~1 mbpd)

which produce > 10% of the world's oil output are all close to peaking or are already depleting. Decline rates for these fields will be high due to the extraction techniques used. Replacing these (and all the others) with alternative energies will be a mammoth task and may not be possible with a global population of 6.5 billion and rising. It is no coincidence that world population has risen exponentially from the era of abundant fossil fuels.
 
CGorman said:
You wanted a highly integrated metro/luas/train system to serve all of Greater Dublin? I think that's a pretty darn good start - and at a price tag of well short of €15bn (even allowing for screwups pushing that to €20bn) I think it's a great plan to work off.
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This map may help
The plan is for the Ballbriggan/Howth Dart to run to Hazlehatch via the interconnector (Pearse/Stephens Green)
Maynooth Dart runs to Bray via Drumcondra/Connolly/Pearse
The metro hence has connectivity to the Dart lines at Drumcondra and St Stephens Green (The map would be cleare if it had Drumcondra indicated instead of Glasnevin)
[broken link removed]
 
Great map! When all thats up and running it will be great base system. I don't think anyone could argue with the idea, other than perhaps on cost - however I feel its worth every penny it costs to build - from envirnomental, social and economic standpoints. I'm sure when its all built new plans will come out in 2020 or so to furture extend the system and probably link up the cherrywood and clondalkin lines among other things.

It was mentioned above that O'Leary has critizised the cost of this new system (in particular the metro). I think thats a positive thing. If there were'nt well known people out there like himself heaping ever more pressure on the governent regarding public transport, dublin airport and the costs of doing these things, do you think they would deliver or commit themselves to projects like this? By publically critizising them they are forced to actually deliver on time and budget - he'll lambast them otherwise - and they know it. He fulfils the skeptical balance on power the Irish media and opposition parties are incapable of. I'm not saying he's the sole balance, but by God, he certainly helps things.
 
sunrock said:
Experts reckon that aviation will become super expensive as oil becomes scarce....we`re talking definitely inside 50 years....flying will be reserved for the top 1% of the population with hopefully benefits for the climate.
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What experts believe that?
As for alternatives, there were plenty put forward in the last debate we had on this in 'the great financial debates' section.
 
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I doubt mass aviation will disappear in 50 years. That ignores mankinds incrediable ability to change, adapt and come up with new ideas. I don't know what or how, but i'm sure in 50 years time a new power method for aircraft will have been developed.

In the past 50 years mankin has invented the internet, launched the first satellite, created the PC, invented the mobile phone, created a supersonic passenger plane, landed men on the moon, commercialised wind energy, gotten to the 4th generation of nuclear power, created a plane capable of carrying 850 people, went through four storage mediums (records, cassetes, CD's, and DVD's), seen the first space stations built, widespread commercialisation of LCD/Plasma, uprecedented growth in communications technologies... among other things.

So given another 50 years why can't mankind engineer it's way out of this problem? 10 years ago there was no such thing as Google, blogs, or mass wireless broadband. 5 years ago there was no such thing as the Millau Viaduct, the Iwate-Ichinohe Tunnel (longest rail tunnel), the Lærdalstunnelen (longest road tunnel), Taipei 101 (tallest building), Bugatti Veyron 16.4 (fastest accelerating car ever), Shanghai Maglev Train (first commercial high speed maglev)... among other things.
 
CGorman said:
I doubt mass aviation will disappear in 50 years. That ignores mankinds incrediable ability to change, adapt and come up with new ideas. I don't know what or how, but i'm sure in 50 years time a new power method for aircraft will have been developed.
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We have started already, apparently boeing have also recently launched their first fuel cell plane.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/NewsReleases/2003/03-29.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_planes
 
Well if oil goes up to over 200$ a barrell in todays money, the cost of flights is going to go up.Of course at this price there will be a slowdown in economic activity... called a recession, when people will have less disposable income.
This increase in oil price is a certainty as supply is reduced ,and don`t forget there is no tax on aviation fuel, so if the price of oil doubles this will have a much bigger effect than car fuel whose price is mostly made up of tax.
The present low prices of flight prices leave room for price rises, but as flight prices double or treble, then less people will fly and the flight costs will rise even more.
This is a real problem for airlines in the future and alternatives such as hydrogen may be tried out especially for cargo.
I DON`T THINK AN ELECTRIC AIRPLANE is possible....but i may be corrected.Anyway my point is the future high cost of air travel will mean much less flying.
 
sunrock said:
I DON`T THINK AN ELECTRIC AIRPLANE is possible....but i may be corrected.Anyway my point is the future high cost of air travel will mean much less flying.
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At the moment, with existing technology an electric plane IS impossible - but given 50 years of devlopment in energy storage, who knows whats possible.
 
ivuernis said:
Not quite... [broken link removed]
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Sorry, I should have qualified my statement...

At the moment I believe a large scale viable commercial passenger plane based solely on electric power is out of reach from existing technologies - however I do believe we will develop such a thing someday
 
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