Mary Hanafin on Barack Obama

[FredBloggs]

Really? She recently sadi, in relation to the payment of 200 million Xmas bonus being paid to SW recipeients that it will help those who have lost their jobs in recent times. Unfortunately, the bonus is only payable to thoise over 15 months 'signing on' so it will only help those who couldn't be bothered to get a job before the recession hit.

Which leads me to wonder is Mary Hannifin the Irish Sarah Palin?

 

[DavyJones]

Yes; a rich stablishment Tory... just what we need

Again, you are missing my point

 

[Complainer]

I don't feel that you have slandered or defamed or inflamed hatred or shouted Fire. I was pointing out the flaw in your supposition that you had an unlimited entitlement to free speech. Try to read what’s written, then you won’t have to make childish swipes

Please don't lecture me about reading my posts while you exaggerate mine. I never supposed or stated that I had an unlimited entitlement to free speech. Try to read what’s written, then you won’t have to make childish swipes

No, I agree as well but that's not what we're talking about... it's also not as important as the AIDS pandemic but we're not talking about that either.

There's that wannabe thing again. What makes you think that you get to decide what we're talking about?

You obviously have no idea why teachers as an occupational group have fallen so sharply in public esteem in recent years.

I really don't think that they have fallen so sharply in public esteem. Is there any evidence of this fall?

 

[Purple]

Please don't lecture me about reading my posts while you exaggerate mine. I never supposed or stated that I had an unlimited entitlement to free speech. Try to read what’s written, then you won’t have to make childish swipes

I’ll ignore that one as neither of us will look good if we continue.

There's that wannabe thing again. What makes you think that you get to decide what we're talking about?

I simply read back over the thread, that tells me what we are talking about... I have no idea what you are basing your insinuation on.

I really don't think that they have fallen so sharply in public esteem. Is there any evidence of this fall?

I’ll leave that one for Ubi; he’s well able to answer for himself and I don’t want to upset you and have you accuse me of anything else

 

[Simeon]

We have all sorts of laws that rightly curtail free speech; we cannot slander, we cannot defame, we cannot seek to inflame hatred, we cannot shout “Fire!” in a crowded building if we know there is none.

If, apart from what you say, there is 'free speech', why do lawyers hit the clock button as soon as you're sitting down?

 

[Purple]

They charge to listen and to be listened to... the speaking part is free

 

[ubiquitous]

I really don't think that they have fallen so sharply in public esteem. Is there any evidence of this fall?

Dunno what you mean by "evidence" (this is a discussion forum, not a court of law) but I would personally take the following two articles as evidence of a growing public dissatisfaction with Irish teachers as an occupational group. Its also worth noting that neither article provoked any discernable degree of public outrage or controversy.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...ity-of-our-teachers-not-quantity-1514577.html

Class size may be a factor when pupils are very young, but it becomes increasingly insignificant for older students. Those who made the Celtic Tiger happen were educated at a time when class sizes were significantly larger than they are now ... or will be next year.

The outlandish statements on the damage caused by increasing class size are not justified by the evidence.

The McKinsey study highlights the important of securing high public standing for teaching to attract the right people into it. If real damage is being done to the school system at present, it is being caused by the belligerent antics of teacher union leadership who have failed to rise to the occasion and recognise that the country is facing a major crisis. Teachers should be among the first to recognise this and provide appropriate public leadership.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/teachers--be-honest-about-your-intentions-1517317.html

Actually, it's possible to postulate that the teachers have orchestrated their protests in order to distract attention from the fact that there is to be a three per cent increase in the education budget over the next year. Because if the public do their sums, they will realise that the increase, when most other departments have suffered a decrease, is being entirely swallowed up by a monumental increase in teachers' salaries.

That is due to a benchmarking process entered into during the "good years," for which there was supposed to be a quid pro quo. But teachers do not work longer or more intensive hours since benchmarking, and they certainly are not delivering the goods: one in five adults functionally illiterate.

....

Indeed, asked during the week if he would agree that teachers should accept a pay cut, rather than the comparatively massive increase scheduled for them this year, John Carr of the Into had the brass neck to say that salary reduction is not the way to finance services. This is a man who represents teachers, supposed to be the intellectual elite of our society: and he can't add or subtract. Services can be paid for without anybody paying for them, it seems.

 

[cole]

I read this thread looking for comments Mary Hanafin had made about B Obama. Guess what? It's a good old fashioned teacher bashing thread. Again. It's getting very tedious and repetitive.

 

[Welfarite]

I read this thread looking for comments Mary Hanafin had made about B Obama. Guess what? It's a good old fashioned teacher bashing thread. Again. It's getting very tedious and repetitive.

Maybe the teacher-bashing posters are Mary Hanafin and Barack Obama? And Mary is on top?

 

[Simeon]

They charge to listen and to be listened to... the speaking part is free

A kind of altruistic Samaritan then? I didn't realise that they hit the 'off' button as soon as their lips move. I think I need some tea and Jaffa cakes.

 

[Complainer]

Dunno what you mean by "evidence" (this is a discussion forum, not a court of law) but I would personally take the following two articles as evidence of a growing public dissatisfaction with Irish teachers as an occupational group. Its also worth noting that neither article provoked any discernable degree of public outrage or controversy.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...ity-of-our-teachers-not-quantity-1514577.html


http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/teachers--be-honest-about-your-intentions-1517317.html

I'm not sure that I'd take Ed Walsh and Emer O'Kelly as being representative of general public opinion. I mean, it's Emer O'Kelly, writing in the Sunday Indo! - shurley shome misthake

Why doesn't Ed Walsh take the 10% cut himself as a first step, and then push through a 10% cut in UL before he comes to hit primary school kids? The absence of 'any discernable degree of public outrage or controversy' is meaningless. There wasn't 'any discernable degree of public outrage or controversy' about [broken link removed] either, but I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from that.

And in relation to the other article, it's Emer O'Kelly. 'nuff said.

I got this list of the 32 education cutbacks by email today, which may be of interest to some;

1. Reduce school building program
2. 200 fewer primary school teachers
3. 200 fewer secondary school teachers
4. Reduction in English language support teachers
5. Reduction in staffing levels for previous non DEIS schools
6. Abolition of sub teachers from Jan '09
7. Early retirement scheme for teachers to be suspended
8. Cookery grant abolished
9. Equipment grant for resource teachers abolished
10. Reduction in Traveller education budget
11. Grants for school choirs and orchestras abolished
12. Grants for home economics abolished
13. Grants for physics and chemistry abolished
14. reductions in Leaving Cert Applied, LCVP and transition year funding
15. Capital reduction for travelers and withdrawal of certain capital for schools that are not in DEIS programme
16. Saving of 7.5 million for school books in DEIS schools
17. Reduction in funding for local libraries who support school libraries
18. Subvention for summer courses conducted in Irish colleges in Gaeltacht areas withdrawn
19. Funding for Centre for Talented Youth withdrawn
20. College Registration Fees hiked to €1,500 from €900
21. Abolition of Early Childcare Centre
22. No increase in Student Maintenance Grants for '09
23. Reduction in provision of 500 places on BTEA initiative
24. Youth services grant reduced by 8%
25. Reduce teacher secondments to in-service training
26. Radical increase in school transport costs to €300
27. Increase State Examination costs
28. Reduction in Department's Regional Office Service
29. Non-implementation of Education of Persons of Special Education Needs Act
30. Deferral of planned increase in medical education places
31. Restrictions in awards made to research councils
32. Failure to spend NDP commitment on ICT funding in schools

 

[Purple]

I'm not sure that I'd take Ed Walsh and Emer O'Kelly as being representative of general public opinion. I mean, it's Emer O'Kelly, writing in the Sunday Indo! - shurley shome misthake

That’s right, if you don’t like the opinion people express then taking the pee out of the way they speak is a valid counter arguement...

Why doesn't Ed Walsh take the 10% cut himself as a first step, and then push through a 10% cut in UL before he comes to hit primary school kids?

Now there’s an emotive misrepresentation if ever I saw one!

And in relation to the other article, it's Emer O'Kelly. 'nuff said.

eh?

I got this list of the 32 education cutbacks by email today, which may be of interest to some;

1. Reduce school building program
2. 200 fewer primary school teachers
3. 200 fewer secondary school teachers
4. Reduction in English language support teachers
5. Reduction in staffing levels for previous non DEIS schools
6. Abolition of sub teachers from Jan '09
7. Early retirement scheme for teachers to be suspended
8. Cookery grant abolished
9. Equipment grant for resource teachers abolished
10. Reduction in Traveller education budget
11. Grants for school choirs and orchestras abolished
12. Grants for home economics abolished
13. Grants for physics and chemistry abolished
14. reductions in Leaving Cert Applied, LCVP and transition year funding
15. Capital reduction for travelers and withdrawal of certain capital for schools that are not in DEIS programme
16. Saving of 7.5 million for school books in DEIS schools
17. Reduction in funding for local libraries who support school libraries
18. Subvention for summer courses conducted in Irish colleges in Gaeltacht areas withdrawn
19. Funding for Centre for Talented Youth withdrawn
20. College Registration Fees hiked to €1,500 from €900
21. Abolition of Early Childcare Centre
22. No increase in Student Maintenance Grants for '09
23. Reduction in provision of 500 places on BTEA initiative
24. Youth services grant reduced by 8%
25. Reduce teacher secondments to in-service training
26. Radical increase in school transport costs to €300
27. Increase State Examination costs
28. Reduction in Department's Regional Office Service
29. Non-implementation of Education of Persons of Special Education Needs Act
30. Deferral of planned increase in medical education places
31. Restrictions in awards made to research councils
32. Failure to spend NDP commitment on ICT funding in schools

The one that stands out for me is “Abolition of sub teachers from Jan '09”. This was something that teachers did as part of their general duties (custom and practice) for about 80 years ‘till their union decided that they should get paid for it and our government bent over for them again.
...anyway the main point remains that if teachers just didn’t take their pay increases this year none of these cuts would be necessary.

 

[Complainer]

Now there’s an emotive misrepresentation if ever I saw one!

Emotive, yes - misrepresentation, No. Nothing wrong with a bit of emotion from time to time. My five-year-old gets just one chance at junior infants. She deserves the best opportunity to make the most of her education.

The one that stands out for me is “Abolition of sub teachers from Jan '09”. This was something that teachers did as part of their general duties (custom and practice) for about 80 years ‘till their union decided that they should get paid for it and our government bent over for them again.

Your spin is taking this issue completely out of context of course. This was one of many issues that was negotiated between teachers and the Dept Ed. But I take then you've no concerns about the other 31 cuts?

...anyway the main point remains that if teachers just didn’t take their pay increases this year none of these cuts would be necessary.

They're not a vocation. They are professionals who deserve decent rewards for their work. I'd suggest that, as a society, we should put a greater value on the work of teachers than (e.g.) the work of bankers, or the work of property developers.

 

[rmelly]

...
7. Early retirement scheme for teachers to be suspended

How many teachers normally take advantage of this in a year? 200? 400?

 

[Purple]

Emotive, yes - misrepresentation, No. Nothing wrong with a bit of emotion from time to time. My five-year-old gets just one chance at junior infants. She deserves the best opportunity to make the most of her education.

My 5 year old also only gets one chance at junior infants but empty headed emotiveness informed by an ill-thought out ideological bias does nothing to advance a discussion about how we deliver the best education we can for our children.

Your spin is taking this issue completely out of context of course. This was one of many issues that was negotiated between teachers and the Dept Ed. But I take then you've no concerns about the other 31 cuts?

My spin!? Your posts could be used as a case study in spin. Teachers did supervision as part of their duties for about 80 years and then a few years ago their greedy unions screwed even more money out of a weak and incompetent government. Now that the penny has dropped and the government realise that they can’t afford the wish list that they granted to the unions during the bubble the mess has hit the fan and the unions, in typical fashion, bleat about the children and continue to serve their own interests.

They're not a vocation. They are professionals who deserve decent rewards for their work. I'd suggest that, as a society, we should put a greater value on the work of teachers than (e.g.) the work of bankers, or the work of property developers.

I suggest that you should try to take reality into account when you formulate your posts and desist from the workers party style emotive (and meaningless) sound bites or are you really suggesting that the people doing the day to day work in banks get better than the pay, terms and conditions or holidays that teachers get? Maybe you were comparing teachers and people on the boards of banks... no, that would be just too stupid.

Bottom line; as the private sector take pay cuts and pay freezes across the board all the teachers have to do in order to not let cuts impact on you and my children it to only take PART of their pay increase.

 

[Complainer]

How many teachers normally take advantage of this in a year? 200? 400?

No idea, but the particular unfairness of this cut was that a new scheme was announced as applying for 2008/2009, so those who planned to avail of the scheme in 2009 suddenly find the rug pulled out from under there feet. They could easily have gone in 2008 if they were aware that the scheme was going to be limited. The net result is that people won't trust dates promised for future schemes.

My 5 year old also only gets one chance at junior infants but empty headed emotiveness informed by an ill-thought out ideological bias does nothing to advance a discussion about how we deliver the best education we can for our children.

This is offensive. I've no problem with robust debate, but referring to my views as empty-headed and ill-thought, simply because you disagree with them is not acceptable. You don't have a monopoly on thinking. You might like to edit your post on mature reflection.

My spin!? Your posts could be used as a case study in spin. Teachers did supervision as part of their duties for about 80 years and then a few years ago their greedy unions screwed even more money out of a weak and incompetent government. Now that the penny has dropped and the government realise that they can’t afford the wish list that they granted to the unions during the bubble the mess has hit the fan and the unions, in typical fashion, bleat about the children and continue to serve their own interests.

We may actually agree on something. I think it is a big mistake for those concerned about these fundamental attacks on the public education system to let the teachers' unions lead the response, as there is an obvious conflict of interest. In the early days, the Boards of Management associations and the parents associations were leading from the front, and I'd prefer to see them back in front.

I suggest that you should try to take reality into account when you formulate your posts and desist from the workers party style emotive (and meaningless) sound bites

I've no problem with taking reality into account. How about the reality of services for students with visual impairments being cut. How about the reality of services for students with poor English being cut. How about the reality of cancelling the roll-out of the EPSEN Act (Education for people with Special Educational Needs), which was just starting to give students with disablities a fair chance. How about the cancellation of the personal advocacy service for people with disabilities and the 'death by a thousand cuts' to the Equality Authority which ensure that the Govt does get a hard time for discriminating against those who need the most support. That is the reality for many schools and students.

are you really suggesting that the people doing the day to day work in banks get better than the pay, terms and conditions or holidays that teachers get? Maybe you were comparing teachers and people on the boards of banks... no, that would be just too stupid.

Try comparing the salary of the average school principal with the average bank manager. I don't get phone calls from my bank manager at 9.30 pm at night, but I have got calls from the principal at that time.

Bottom line; as the private sector take pay cuts and pay freezes across the board all the teachers have to do in order to not let cuts impact on you and my children it to only take PART of their pay increase.

Do have a source for this 'pay cuts and pay freezes across the board' claim. I'm not suggesting that some organisations are having severe financial difficulities, but I really don't believe the IBEC 'shock doctrine' spin that the world is collapsing. Maybe those who caused the current economic crisis should pay the price for recovering, and not the public servants who work hard with poor supports and resources to provide a fair service to all.

 

[ashambles]

I'm not suggesting that some organisations are having severe financial difficulities, but I really don't believe the IBEC 'shock doctrine' spin that the world is collapsing.

This'll look mighty perceptive in the months to come.

Maybe the 50% extra unemployed over the last year should be informed of it already - everything's hunky dory lads, your world didn't collapse, twas just IBEC propaganda, phew..

 

[Marion]

Teachers did supervision as part of their duties for about 80 years and then a few years ago their greedy unions screwed even more money out of a weak and incompetent government.

Points of information:

Supervision/Substitution by teachers was always voluntary. It was never a duty. So, for about 80 years (the figure given) teachers provided this service gratis.

Many teachers have not opted for the scheme that provides payment for supervision/substitution.

Marion

 

[ashambles]

In my opinion there's a difference between a professional and somebody working in a menial job.

It's not too surprising when you hear untrained and unskilled people complaining that doing x and y isn't their job. On the other hand a professional whose forging a career has some pride in his or her work does whatever is needed to complete the job - be it training, standing in for someone, emptying the bins, whatever it takes.

Some teachers seem to think their profession is second only to being a full time saint and deserve extra for doing tasks that we all saw our teachers doing when we were growing up.

It's about the only profession most of us had good knowledge of by the age of 17, how could any new teacher be surprised that supervising lunch breaks, or sitting in looking bored and depressed for absent teachers wasn't part of job.

Just because some lilly livered government concession eventually describes a routine part of a job as being extra - doesn't really make it so.

What next? Walking from class to class is hardly spelled out in the job spec, it's voluntary, should we hire throne bearers to lump them around?

 

[Complainer]

In my opinion there's a difference between a professional and somebody working in a menial job.

It's not too surprising when you hear untrained and unskilled people complaining that doing x and y isn't their job. On the other hand a professional whose forging a career has some pride in his or her work does whatever is needed to complete the job - be it training, standing in for someone, emptying the bins, whatever it takes.

Some teachers seem to think their profession is second only to being a full time saint and deserve extra for doing tasks that we all saw our teachers doing when we were growing up.

It's about the only profession most of us had good knowledge of by the age of 17, how could any new teacher be surprised that supervising lunch breaks, or sitting in looking bored and depressed for absent teachers wasn't part of job.

Just because some lilly livered government concession eventually describes a routine part of a job as being extra - doesn't really make it so.

What next? Walking from class to class is hardly spelled out in the job spec, it's voluntary, should we hire throne bearers to lump them around?

Any competent professional will ensure that they get fair remuneration for the job in hand. It is unprofessional and unsustainable to rollover to every request for additional services for no extra fee.