Duke of Marmalade
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It is reasonable to suggets that he was saying that to keep the IRA on side. I don't know where you get the idea that CJH was the IRA's main benefactor.
He had to ride both horses in order to get them both to go in the same direction.
Nope, but it was basically an apartheid state.
A different point which would require hours and beer to discuss properly.
The system that brought us Brexit and Trump. I'm not a fan. I think there should be a licensing system which should aim to deny deplorables the licence to vote.What is your take on one man one vote
Or maybe Martin believed that the only way to get the serious political dialogue going was via the IRA campaign. Do you really think the current situation in Northern Ireland would have happened had there been no IRA campaign?You portray a picture of Martin as a virtuous infiltrator of the IRA. Pretending to support their campaign of murder but secretly plotting to convert them to the ways of peace. I doubt if that defense was tried at Nuremberg.
"GFA is Sunningdale for slow learners" - Seamus Mallon. In 1972 Martin was part of the IRA negotiating team who failed to agree peace with the British government. The British went ahead and implemented Sunningdale despite the IRA's fierce rejection of such a settlement. The catholic insurgency of 1969 was probably necessary to get where we are today but the 25 years of terrorist war from 1973 to 1998 in pursuit of an all Ireland socialist republic was utterly futile and immoral IMHO.Or maybe Martin believed that the only way to get the serious political dialogue going was via the IRA campaign. Do you really think the current situation in Northern Ireland would have happened had there been no IRA campaign?
He had to ride both horses in order to get them both to go in the same direction.
"GFA is Sunningdale for slow learners" - Seamus Mallon. In 1972 Martin was part of the IRA negotiating team who failed to agree peace with the British government. The British went ahead and implemented Sunningdale despite the IRA's fierce rejection of such a settlement. The catholic insurgency of 1969 was necessary to get where we are today but the 25 years of terrorist war from 1973 to 1998 in pursuit of an all Ireland socialist republic was utterly futile and immoral IMHO.
...the 25 years of terrorist war from 1973 to 1998 in pursuit of an all Ireland socialist republic was utterly futile and immoral IMHO.
Sunningdale had no chance of cross community acceptance with the continued terrorist campaign of the IRA. The main difference when Sunningdale was rolled out 25 years later was that the IRA were onside. The ownership of the 73-98 extension of the Troubles lies firmly with republicans. Unless one places the objective of an all Ireland socialist republic on a moral plain above all else the human misery endured during that period was pointless and inexcusable.Was it Martin McGuinness that toppled Sunningdale ?
Three shots on goal there, Purple, let's see if I can save them.
The most underestimated episode of the whole Troubles is the Arms Trial. CJH and his cronies financed and supplied the Provisional IRA at their formation. Without this support from elements in the highest echelons of a foreign state Grisly and Martin could never have launched such a "successful" and sustained terrorist campaign from a few housing estates in Belfast and Londonderry. However I agree that by 1985 Gaddaffi was probably a more significant benefactor than CJH.
No, he started off as a murdering terrorist but bought in to the idea of constitutional politics quite early on. I’m sure there was no catharsis, no road to Damascus experience.You portray a picture of Martin as a virtuous infiltrator of the IRA. Pretending to support their campaign of murder but secretly plotting to convert them to the ways of peace. I doubt if that defense was tried at Nuremberg.
The Catholic Church’s opposition to joint education was a major contributor in prolonging the conflict but when you choose to ignore the sectarian nature of the Protestant government prior to Sunningdale, the Protestant police force treating Catholics as their enemy, and the myriad of other factors which negatively impacted the lives of Catholics you weaken your argument.The catholics in particular wanted and still want to live and be educated separately. There was never any public ban on the use by catholics of public amenities etc. Invoking apartheid comparisons is of course a central feature of mopery.
Again, you ignore that it was Unionism, more than Nationalism, which brought down Sunningdale.Sunningdale had no chance of cross community acceptance with the continued terrorist campaign of the IRA. The main difference when Sunningdale was rolled out 25 years later was that the IRA were onside. The ownership of the 73-98 extension of the Troubles lies firmly with republicans. Unless one places the objective of an all Ireland socialist republic on a moral plain above all else the human misery endured during that period was pointless and inexcusable.
You have formed an incorrect conclusion as to what my opinions is of Martin McGuinness. Everything which you have built on that error is also incorrect.I note your enjoyment of my pensées. You owe your thanks to Purple who provoked these thoughts by the originality of his assertion that throughout those 25 years Martin was a "peace fifth columnist" within the ranks of the IRA, disingenuously praising their achievements at Enniskillen etc. but all the time plotting to betray them to the peace process. Purple might be right, it would go some way to explain Grisly and Martin's passion to have a Truth recovery process to reveal these facts, currently known only to a select few cognoscenti like Purple.
While Martin had an important role in 1972 he wouldnt have the influence that people like O Conaill O Bradaigh Seamus Twomey and Joe Cahill had. They were also up against Unionist dogmatics like Craig and Paisley who as usual were the puppeteers for Andy Tyrie and John McMichael.I agree with all of that.
In my opinion his journey towards peaceful means started in 1972 but it was a long journey with many a pause and diversion.
Dunno about that TBH. Think I read somewhere that it was a Leitrim unit that messed it up and were disbanded after but bottom line is that if you put big bombs in crowded areas without adequate warnings then innocent people die. Even in the Omagh case there were warnings albeit they made such a bags of it that it increased the death toll. I dont think there was any warning of any description in Enniskillen. Hard to believe a man in his position did not know that was 'going down'. So while I respect what McGuinness achieved in the end, and I think in different circumstances other than the ones handed to him he might well have been a right honourable gent, I do think he deserved to be tarred with the all the worst of the deeds of the Provos. Sure you could say the triggermen were just following orders, the buck has to spot with the men at the helm.I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he did not condone or sanction the likes of Enniskillen. RIP
If he had the position of influence as alleged certainly no murder, bombing etc went on in Derry without he giving the go ahead. This would include the barbaric death of Patsy Gillespie and murder of the census collector Joanne MathersDunno about that TBH. Think I read somewhere that it was a Leitrim unit that messed it up and were disbanded after but bottom line is that if you put big bombs in crowded areas without adequate warnings then innocent people die. Even in the Omagh case there were warnings albeit they made such a bags of it that it increased the death toll. I dont think there was any warning of any description in Enniskillen. Hard to believe a man in his position did not know that was 'going down'. So while I respect what McGuinness achieved in the end, and I think in different circumstances other than the ones handed to him he might well have been a right honourable gent, I do think he deserved to be tarred with the all the worst of the deeds of the Provos. Sure you could say the triggermen were just following orders, the buck has to spot with the men at the helm.
Hard to believe a man in his position did not know that was 'going down'.
What do you expect; he's a socialist.Adams in his graveyard speech said "Martin McGuiness was 150% right"
150%!! Looks like Gerry still hasn't cracked the old economics lark.
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