Martin McGuinness RIP

It is reasonable to suggets that he was saying that to keep the IRA on side. I don't know where you get the idea that CJH was the IRA's main benefactor.

He had to ride both horses in order to get them both to go in the same direction.

Nope, but it was basically an apartheid state.
A different point which would require hours and beer to discuss properly.

Three shots on goal there, Purple, let's see if I can save them.

The most underestimated episode of the whole Troubles is the Arms Trial. CJH and his cronies financed and supplied the Provisional IRA at their formation. Without this support from elements in the highest echelons of a foreign state Grisly and Martin could never have launched such a "successful" and sustained terrorist campaign from a few housing estates in Belfast and Londonderry. However I agree that by 1985 Gaddaffi was probably a more significant benefactor than CJH.

Verdict: I saved it but I had to tip it off the crossbar. There might be a rebound.

You portray a picture of Martin as a virtuous infiltrator of the IRA. Pretending to support their campaign of murder but secretly plotting to convert them to the ways of peace. I doubt if that defense was tried at Nuremberg.:p

Verdict: I don't know why I dived, this one was going a mile wide.

The catholics in particular wanted and still want to live and be educated separately. There was never any public ban on the use by catholics of public amenities etc. Invoking apartheid comparisons is of course a central feature of mopery.

Verdict: right into the arms of the goalkeeper.:rolleyes:
 
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You portray a picture of Martin as a virtuous infiltrator of the IRA. Pretending to support their campaign of murder but secretly plotting to convert them to the ways of peace. I doubt if that defense was tried at Nuremberg.
Or maybe Martin believed that the only way to get the serious political dialogue going was via the IRA campaign. Do you really think the current situation in Northern Ireland would have happened had there been no IRA campaign?
 
Or maybe Martin believed that the only way to get the serious political dialogue going was via the IRA campaign. Do you really think the current situation in Northern Ireland would have happened had there been no IRA campaign?
"GFA is Sunningdale for slow learners" - Seamus Mallon. In 1972 Martin was part of the IRA negotiating team who failed to agree peace with the British government. The British went ahead and implemented Sunningdale despite the IRA's fierce rejection of such a settlement. The catholic insurgency of 1969 was probably necessary to get where we are today but the 25 years of terrorist war from 1973 to 1998 in pursuit of an all Ireland socialist republic was utterly futile and immoral IMHO.
 
"GFA is Sunningdale for slow learners" - Seamus Mallon. In 1972 Martin was part of the IRA negotiating team who failed to agree peace with the British government. The British went ahead and implemented Sunningdale despite the IRA's fierce rejection of such a settlement. The catholic insurgency of 1969 was necessary to get where we are today but the 25 years of terrorist war from 1973 to 1998 in pursuit of an all Ireland socialist republic was utterly futile and immoral IMHO.

Was it Martin McGuinness that toppled Sunningdale ?
 
Was it Martin McGuinness that toppled Sunningdale ?
Sunningdale had no chance of cross community acceptance with the continued terrorist campaign of the IRA. The main difference when Sunningdale was rolled out 25 years later was that the IRA were onside. The ownership of the 73-98 extension of the Troubles lies firmly with republicans. Unless one places the objective of an all Ireland socialist republic on a moral plain above all else the human misery endured during that period was pointless and inexcusable.

I note your enjoyment of my pensées. You owe your thanks to Purple who provoked these thoughts by the originality of his assertion that throughout those 25 years Martin was a "peace fifth columnist" within the ranks of the IRA, disingenuously praising their achievements at Enniskillen etc. but all the time plotting to betray them to the peace process. Purple might be right, it would go some way to explain Grisly and Martin's passion to have a Truth recovery process to reveal these facts, currently known only to a select few cognoscenti like Purple.
 
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Three shots on goal there, Purple, let's see if I can save them.


The most underestimated episode of the whole Troubles is the Arms Trial. CJH and his cronies financed and supplied the Provisional IRA at their formation. Without this support from elements in the highest echelons of a foreign state Grisly and Martin could never have launched such a "successful" and sustained terrorist campaign from a few housing estates in Belfast and Londonderry. However I agree that by 1985 Gaddaffi was probably a more significant benefactor than CJH.

Do you seriously think that the entire Cabinet didn’t know about the whole sordid affair? I agree that it was despicable and was a major contributor to the growth of the IRA but I don’t buy the idea that it was CJH and his mates acting alone.



You portray a picture of Martin as a virtuous infiltrator of the IRA. Pretending to support their campaign of murder but secretly plotting to convert them to the ways of peace. I doubt if that defense was tried at Nuremberg.
No, he started off as a murdering terrorist but bought in to the idea of constitutional politics quite early on. I’m sure there was no catharsis, no road to Damascus experience.



The catholics in particular wanted and still want to live and be educated separately. There was never any public ban on the use by catholics of public amenities etc. Invoking apartheid comparisons is of course a central feature of mopery.
The Catholic Church’s opposition to joint education was a major contributor in prolonging the conflict but when you choose to ignore the sectarian nature of the Protestant government prior to Sunningdale, the Protestant police force treating Catholics as their enemy, and the myriad of other factors which negatively impacted the lives of Catholics you weaken your argument.

There was and is no justification for the actions of the IRA but presenting the Protestant government and Protestant Statelet as if they were innocent parties is to grossly misrepresent the truth.

The Ulster Protestant Volunteers, founded by the good Reverend, stood with the UVF and the RUC while they all stoned Catholic houses during the Battle of the Bogside. The collusion between the RUC and MI5 and their SAS attack dogs was rampant and resulted in the murder of many IRA men (no harm in my book) as well as innocent civilians.

The SAS murder of 16 year old John Boyle in 1978 is particularly striking. John had found a IRA weapons cache in a graveyard beside his home. He told his father who went straight to the police. The RUC told MI5 who had the SAS wait to ambush the IRA. The next morning John went back to see if the Cache was still there and was shot numerous times in the back by the SAS. His father ran to the scene and was arrested. The SAS were never named and never convicted even though the Judge at their trial seriously questioned the truthfulness of their evidence. Adrian Weale, author and former Military intelligence officer, wrote a book about covert operations by British forces and laid out the truth of what happened. He was called into the MoD and made to edit his book before publishing it. Ed Moloney wrote about it in the Irish Times at the time.

When your State treats you as their enemy it is hard not to see them as your enemy.
 
Sunningdale had no chance of cross community acceptance with the continued terrorist campaign of the IRA. The main difference when Sunningdale was rolled out 25 years later was that the IRA were onside. The ownership of the 73-98 extension of the Troubles lies firmly with republicans. Unless one places the objective of an all Ireland socialist republic on a moral plain above all else the human misery endured during that period was pointless and inexcusable.
Again, you ignore that it was Unionism, more than Nationalism, which brought down Sunningdale.

I note your enjoyment of my pensées. You owe your thanks to Purple who provoked these thoughts by the originality of his assertion that throughout those 25 years Martin was a "peace fifth columnist" within the ranks of the IRA, disingenuously praising their achievements at Enniskillen etc. but all the time plotting to betray them to the peace process. Purple might be right, it would go some way to explain Grisly and Martin's passion to have a Truth recovery process to reveal these facts, currently known only to a select few cognoscenti like Purple.
You have formed an incorrect conclusion as to what my opinions is of Martin McGuinness. Everything which you have built on that error is also incorrect.
 
Purple this thread is about Martin McGuinness. You take a much more sympathetic view of his role than I do, dating his conversion to peaceful means back to 1972 when he was a 22 year leading light in the IRA and clearly opposed to any peace settlement with the British that maintained partition.
I recognize that in pursuing a contrary narrative I may be seen to minimize the undoubted failings of the protestant parliament and its people. But just to put the record straight I think the catholic insurgency of 1969 including the role of armed republicanism in it was justified. I am firmly of the view that the horrific extenuation of violent resistance in pursuit of an all Ireland socialist republic was unjustified, for reasons already stated and I am afraid that I am also of the view that a young radicalised Martin McGuinness had a large part to play in that regard.

But yes the mature Martin McGuinness made a positive contribution. I also think, given his strong religious and clean living background, he acted in a moral way by his own lights. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he did not condone or sanction the likes of Enniskillen. RIP
 
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I agree with all of that.
In my opinion his journey towards peaceful means started in 1972 but it was a long journey with many a pause and diversion.
 
I agree with all of that.
In my opinion his journey towards peaceful means started in 1972 but it was a long journey with many a pause and diversion.
While Martin had an important role in 1972 he wouldnt have the influence that people like O Conaill O Bradaigh Seamus Twomey and Joe Cahill had. They were also up against Unionist dogmatics like Craig and Paisley who as usual were the puppeteers for Andy Tyrie and John McMichael.
 
I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he did not condone or sanction the likes of Enniskillen. RIP
Dunno about that TBH. Think I read somewhere that it was a Leitrim unit that messed it up and were disbanded after but bottom line is that if you put big bombs in crowded areas without adequate warnings then innocent people die. Even in the Omagh case there were warnings albeit they made such a bags of it that it increased the death toll. I dont think there was any warning of any description in Enniskillen. Hard to believe a man in his position did not know that was 'going down'. So while I respect what McGuinness achieved in the end, and I think in different circumstances other than the ones handed to him he might well have been a right honourable gent, I do think he deserved to be tarred with the all the worst of the deeds of the Provos. Sure you could say the triggermen were just following orders, the buck has to spot with the men at the helm.
 
Dunno about that TBH. Think I read somewhere that it was a Leitrim unit that messed it up and were disbanded after but bottom line is that if you put big bombs in crowded areas without adequate warnings then innocent people die. Even in the Omagh case there were warnings albeit they made such a bags of it that it increased the death toll. I dont think there was any warning of any description in Enniskillen. Hard to believe a man in his position did not know that was 'going down'. So while I respect what McGuinness achieved in the end, and I think in different circumstances other than the ones handed to him he might well have been a right honourable gent, I do think he deserved to be tarred with the all the worst of the deeds of the Provos. Sure you could say the triggermen were just following orders, the buck has to spot with the men at the helm.
If he had the position of influence as alleged certainly no murder, bombing etc went on in Derry without he giving the go ahead. This would include the barbaric death of Patsy Gillespie and murder of the census collector Joanne Mathers
 
Oh dear, I see the occasional dyslexia has struck with the buck having to spot, like that time I sold my soul to Santa.....

Just watched the news, delighted a) Arlene Foster turned up & was welcomed, b) Gerry talking about extending the hand of friendship to Unionists - so hopefully that will give a slightly better vibe as they try to put a government together. Put it this way it was a helluva lot better than berets, dark glasses and volleys over the coffin.
 
Adams in his graveyard speech said "Martin McGuiness was 150% right"
150%!! Looks like Gerry still hasn't cracked the old economics lark.
 
Hard to believe a man in his position did not know that was 'going down'.

I was thinking about that last night and I agree. In any small to medium company for example, the top man/woman would be well aware of any new permanent hire for example, and with the IRA I would imagine any permanent killing would also have to get the nod from the top.
 
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