I saw this picture and think its a very appropriate point for this discussion.
The Fact that you cant sell your daughter for three goats and a cow means we have already redefined marriage!
Not making light of this point but Marriage has already been redefined so many times in our lifetime. Women are no longer automatically domiciled where their (ex/estranged) husband resides, women can continue to work post marriage, women can apply for loans without their husbands permission, marital rape is now a crime, black can marry white etc..
Why are people scared that allowing two men to marry, or two women to marry will disrupt their existing marriage? If your marriage is strong - then the world wont change for you. If your marriage is not strong and falls apart - I dont think its anything to do with this possible change in law. You need to look to other factors.
What we are doing is creating an equality in law.
Forgive me, but I do not see how changes within how women were unfairly treated in Marriage actually creates a redefined marriage.
I have a nagging doubt that Gays/Lesbians have a hang up over Marriage.
.......................The laws were changed to redefine marriage. A single woman was allowed work, was allowed get a loan, was allowed live where she chose to live. The legal definition of marriage pre-these changes prevented a married woman from doing so. In more enlightened decades, the law was changed to allow a married woman to have self-determination. Do you not think that those changes in law redefined the LEGAL entity that is marriage?
Oh totally! Absolutely agree! As a member of the gay/lesbian brigade (well gay more so - i have never had much lesbian tendencies!) - I do have a hang up on it. I am a legal member of this state, I pay my taxes (way more than many people do - different story), yet the law prevents me from being fully equal in my country of birth. This is the last element of legal discrimination that exists that causes me to be treated differently than you.
I have no interest in destroying your marriage, I have no interest in banning marriage. What I have an interest in is the ability to be equal in law to you - based on something that I had no decision in. I was born Gay - I have as much of an ability to feign attraction to members of the opposite sex as you do to members of the same sex. And unlike you (I'm presuming) - I at least tried living that way.
So yes - I have a hang up over marriage.
I think you're half right there. There is no profit in voicing support for a No vote. I'd expect a sizable No on the day from many who are otherwise generally disinterested in the sexual preferences of others . . but when pushed will decide that marriage is a gendered institution worth preserving as such and that the cry of inequality is hollow in that civil partnership is the same-sex equivalent. Some will have genuine concerns that beyond a Yes a quota of adoptive children will be denied either a mother or a father, all else being equal, for the sake of modernity and supposed equality.in general the no vote is silent and probably ill informed.
You mightn't like it or may view it as semantics but you are equal in law. The law says, with various restrictions, that an individual can marry someone of the opposite sex or can enter a civil partnership with someone of the same sex; this is the same for all. Your individual rights are the same as mine. With a Yes we will be straying from equality for individuals, which is what we should have, to equality of relationships, which is a misstep for the State.What I have an interest in is the ability to be equal in law to you
As you might have gathered I ain,t in the discrimination business and would not wish to give a hoot about someones sexuality.
I am also surprised that within the AAM community I seem to be the only openly gay person in this discussion. Therefore you are all debating whether to treat me equally in law. I am the only person truly affected in this thread.Still amazed how the NO voters are too silent for there to be a reasoned debate.
Unfortunately I also believe that this will happen - as people dont like change. And that the power of the churches will mobilise a lot of No voters. Yes voters may see this as a fundamental human right and may not actually vote as they are convinced it will occur anyway without their vote.I'd expect a sizable No on the day from many who are otherwise generally disinterested in the sexual preferences of others . . but when pushed will decide that marriage is a gendered institution worth preserving...
Michalem: The thing is - Civil Parnership is not the same sex equivalent. It is not equal in law to marriage (see [broken link removed]for more information). It is a lesser right. It also allowed inequality to be written into law - as only a same sex couple cannot enter into civil partnership - You are not able to enter a civil partnership as a straight couple. In Britain when it was introduced - Men and Women could choose a civil partnership.the cry of inequality is hollow in that civil partnership is the same-sex equivalent.
I'm dubious about your first comment above and the second is less credible again.And that the power of the churches will mobilise a lot of No voters. Yes voters may see this as a fundamental human right and may not actually vote as they are convinced it will occur anyway without their vote.
That's not a problem with the gendered institution of marriage but rather a problem with the Irish implementation of civil partnership (Irish governments never seem to get anything quite right) which could be remedied . . civil partnership should be non-gendered. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are not the same, the result of the referendum will not change this, perhaps it is you who fears difference. The vast majority of people are disinterested, if not uninterested, in the sexuality of others.Civil Parnership is not the same sex equivalent. It is not equal in law to marriage. It is a lesser right. It also allowed inequality to be written into law - as only a same sex couple cannot enter into civil partnership - You are not able to enter a civil partnership as a straight couple.
Homosexuality and heterosexuality are not the same, the result of the referendum will not change this, perhaps it is you who fears difference.
..........................Look, Sol28, I'm not vehemently opposed, just opposed. I view it as a folly, a pretence and a waste of time and money (as is the other referendum); I view marriage as a gendered institution and any change to this would be a sham. For me, and I suspect most No voters, there is no inequality, just difference. If civil partnership needs to be tweaked then it should be. There's little point going round in circles which the same arguments, you either view it as an equality issue or you don't . . which is probably why there isn't much debate (despite Gerry champing at the bit for such).
Sounds like a convoluted way of trying to justify your view to me. Should a heterosexual couple who know they are infertile and do not want to adopt be denied the right to marry, then?
Can't have kids? Won't have kids? No marriage for you then.
I'm not even going to point out that gay couples can also have children as that is obvious.
I think its important to go back to first principles and note that marriage is first and foremost a 'contract'. And one of the principles of contract is that because contracts are voluntary agreements, if the two parties wish to terminate the contract, they have the option to do so or to create a new contract. However there are restrictions on this if third parties are involved, and I think it is for this reason that traditionally marriage is considered to be a very restrictive (difficult to terminate) contract because it is assumed that there will be third parties (e.g children, grandchildren, in-laws, etc ) affected by the termination of the contract
It is hard for me to see then, why the coming together of any two ( or even more) people for the purpose of mutual friendship etc. in a sterile relationship that would not normally produce third parties (children) would require a contract as legally binding as that of marriage unless there was an intention that third party issues (e.g children) would be involved.
It has no effect or impact on all those who are currently married. It doesn't weaken their marriage or commitment, it will just make more people in the state happy and equal.
I also think that some caution is necessary when it comes to the Irish constitution as changes can have unforeseen consequences.
What strikes me in this debate is that the whole 'civil partnership' idea was a complete waste of time and money, it should just have been 'civil marriage' in the first place and let everyone get on with their lives.
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