LPT: Revenue Property Valuation Guide (The Heatmap) now live

[David_Dublin]

There is no point in discussing the accuracy of the site at all - it is clearly not accurate except where the house you are in represents what revenue have decided is typical of the area being considered.

But the areas are so large, in effect "the average" has no meaning.

Have a cruise around Dublin - looking in Dublin 4 - if you're one side of the railway line, e.g. on Park Avenue, you are in Band 13, if you're on the other side, you're in Band 20.

Just one example, but it demonstrates a couple of things. There is such variance of property value within any area that the onus will be on people using their own initiative to apply an accurate band. The areas are too big, particularly in urban areas where the variance increases.

So what will end up happening? Well, people who have an estimated band that is too low will stick with this. Those that have one that is too high will adjust accordingly. The end result is that Revenue will have more cash in their coffers, and over time will improve their method of offering sample valuations.

 

[mandelbrot]

Revenue have probably done themselves no favours by producing this map.

Is that because the figures on the map help set a reasonable expectation?

(Why do your quotes always come up weird?!?)

No, exactly the opposite actually, it's because anyone who wants to can go and find the anomalies (where it suggests very clear overvaluations / undervaluations, lumping "nice" areas in with undesirable ones etc...), and have a good old moan!

In other words they were on a hiding to nothing - if they were capable of producing a map that no-one could whinge about then the tax wouldn't need to be self-assessment - but they weren't!

 

[David_Dublin]

I'd agree with Mandelbrot, revenue have done themselves no favours.

How likely is it that an owner of a property has no idea of the value of the property? In reality, what this does is probably increase the chance of their total revenue take for this being lower than it could have been. That said, it's hard to release a self assessment tax without some guidelines on how to self assess.

 

[Dermot]

Many people are of the opinion that where there is a significant difference between the Revenue valuation and the owners valuation that if you cannot prove it by recent sales figures (may not be available) that you will have to go to the expense of employing a valuer to prove your valuation correct. I refer to my earlier post where revenue are suggesting that the 1 bed Apt in Sth Great Georges St is in the 200k to 250k after the 61% fall in Dublin Apt prices from peak. If I was getting anywhere between 5-600k for it at the peak I would not own it now. I will be sticking with my own valuation which I know in my heart is the correct value and I cannot see why the onus should be on the owner rather than revenue to prove valuation. This thing of threatening people with Audits in circumstances like my situation is legalising intimidation. They can hit me with penalties when I am selling in the unlikely event that I deliberately undervalued.

http://www.irishtimes.com/property-prices-indicate-two-tier-market-1.1316341

 

[David_Dublin]

I refer to my earlier post where revenue are suggesting that the 1 bed Apt in Sth Great Georges St is in the 200k to 250k after the 61% fall in Dublin Apt prices from peakhttp://www.irishtimes.com/property-prices-indicate-two-tier-market-1.1316341

They are suggesting nothing of the sort. This is a self assessment tax, they are not telling you how much your property is worth. You seem to have an idea what it's worth, so by definition you are in a position to work out how much tax to pay.

 

[Mizen Head]

I think a lot of the discussion about the guided valuation per the map will change when you actually get your letter, with the Revenue estimated tax due.
The interative map, with the sub-area for my house highlighted shows me a valuation of 400-450k This is low as there is a similar house for sale here at at 575k. I estimate my value in the 500-550 band and I intended returning this.
However, I am a ROS customer and last night I checked to see if the Revenue estimate was there. Yes, they are looking for 542 euro, putting me in the 600-650k band.!! I

So, wait for the letter before getting excited about the Map indication
being too high or too low!

 

[Dermot]

Going by your experience Mizen Head Revenue should never have put up that map as other posters have suggested. I cannot understand why there was so much effort put into something as useful petrol for putting out a fire. I was looking at their map where I come from in the countryside and it is on the border with another county and the town land in the next county has disappeared and is incorporated into the other town land.

What is the situation with unfinished estates that were exempted from the household charge. I thought that there was going to be an exemption from the LPT for them as well.

 

[Sumatra]

"(and why are you so cantankerous?!?)"


Over time they will build up meaningful statistics that will make such a map useful but until such time they should probably withdraw it.

I can calculate the rebuild cost of my property very easily. But not the market value and that map doesn't help. If anything it encourages dishonesty.

Dermot, I agree with you I too will be putting my hand on my heart and paying what I think is correct. I really don't mind paying this tax but what I do mind is the uncertainty of whether I'm under estimating or over estimating it and if I ever sell will they penalise me if I got it wrong or refund me if I erred on the side of caution. I just want to pay it and get on with the other things in life.

 

[Mizen Head]

Hi Shad, I know the Revenue have no idea what the house is worth. I am just posting that the Mapping Tool is very different (at least, in my case ) from the individual estimate on ROS. I will not be going with their estimate, and will be returning what I feel is the correct figure ( with my neighbours For Sale price as my support evidence, if necessary.
I am in Dun-Laoghaire Rathdown, I wont give the exact Electoral District)

 

[mandelbrot]

Many people are of the opinion that where there is a significant difference between the Revenue valuation and the owners valuation that if you cannot prove it by recent sales figures (may not be available) that you will have to go to the expense of employing a valuer to prove your valuation correct. I refer to my earlier post where revenue are suggesting that the 1 bed Apt in Sth Great Georges St is in the 200k to 250k after the 61% fall in Dublin Apt prices from peak. If I was getting anywhere between 5-600k for it at the peak I would not own it now. I will be sticking with my own valuation which I know in my heart is the correct value and I cannot see why the onus should be on the owner rather than revenue to prove valuation. This thing of threatening people with Audits in circumstances like my situation is legalising intimidation. They can hit me with penalties when I am selling in the unlikely event that I deliberately undervalued.

Sigh... this is exactly what I was talking about when I said people are losing the run of themselves over this thing. Read the first couple of sentences on the front page of the valuation guide: "This service provides a guide to average market values of properties in a given locality and offers an indicative valuation band for properties depending on type, age and location. It does not provide market values for individual properties. The guidance is primarily based on the market value of properties sold since the year 2010 in the area, adjusted for average price movements in the interim. This guidance will be helpful in the majority of cases but there are always properties in an area that differ from the average." So clearly Revenue know that what they have in that map is general averages from a largely inactive market, intended to be HELPFUL, not definitive or prescriptive.

How exactly is suggesting that Revenue might audit a self-assessment tax return "legalising intimidation"?! An audit of LPT would simply be Revenue asking, "why did you value it at band 3", and you saying "I valued at Band 3 because..." and they either accept it and go away or they raise an assessment on you for the perceived shortfall as they see it, and you can appeal it. That's due process, not intimidation IMHO.

 

[seantheman]

the sub-area for my house highlighted shows me a valuation of 400-450k This is low as there is a similar house for sale here at at 575k. I estimate my value in the 500-550 band and I intended returning this.

Just because your neighbours have their house on the market for €575k doesn't mean it's worth that. At the end of the day it's worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, I could go to their EA and offer €475k and they might snap my hand off for it.

 

[Dermot]

Like Sumatra. I accept paying the tax but I have an issue with having to prove or in the absence of proof having to engage a valuer at my expense. Ok if revenue would accept the side that has the wrong valuation pays the neutral valuer. You would imagine that where there is a dispute about valuation the onus would be on revenue to prove valuation not the other way around.
Is there a transcript of Pat Kenny's interview with the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners last week

 

[dereko1969]

Like Sumatra. I accept paying the tax but I have an issue with having to prove or in the absence of proof having to engage a valuer at my expense. Ok if revenue would accept the side that has the wrong valuation pays the neutral valuer. You would imagine that where there is a dispute about valuation the onus would be on revenue to prove valuation not the other way around.
Is there a transcript of Pat Kenny's interview with the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners last week

Did you actually read what mandlebrot wrote?

 

[Mizen Head]

Hi Sean. Of course, they might snap your hand off. The point I was making was that in my individual case, my self assessment of my house is in the 500-550 Band. The neighbouring For Sale sign shows the absolute max valuation ( before any negotiating or offers) and I can use this if Revenue dispute my self assessment. (it does show that the Revenue estimate on my RoS of 600-650 is off the mark, though)

 

[mandelbrot]

"(and why are you so cantankerous?!?)"

I'm not, I'm simply pointing out an oddity!

Over time they will build up meaningful statistics that will make such a map useful but until such time they should probably withdraw it.

I can calculate the rebuild cost of my property very easily. But not the market value and that map doesn't help. If anything it encourages dishonesty.

So you agree with me, and yet you quizzed me when I suggested the map was a bad idea out of Revenue... who's cantankerous now?!

Dermot, I agree with you I too will be putting my hand on my heart and paying what I think is correct.

So in other words, you'll be doing what they've asked.

I really don't mind paying this tax but what I do mind is the uncertainty of whether I'm under estimating or over estimating it and if I ever sell will they penalise me if I got it wrong or refund me if I erred on the side of caution. I just want to pay it and get on with the other things in life.

The FAQs on the Revenue website, as well as any of the press releases / radio show appearances I've heard, all say the same thing - "LPT is a self-assessed tax. If you follow Revenue’s valuation guidelines honestly, Revenue will accept your property value assessment".
You haven't even seen the Guideline document yet, so how can you talk about such "uncertainty" - if following the guidance that's in it results in the same / lesser valuation than your hand on heart figure you'll be fine, so that is the only uncertainty you have for now.

 

[mandelbrot]

Like Sumatra. I accept paying the tax but I have an issue with having to prove or in the absence of proof having to engage a valuer at my expense. Ok if revenue would accept the side that has the wrong valuation pays the neutral valuer. You would imagine that where there is a dispute about valuation the onus would be on revenue to prove valuation not the other way around.
Is there a transcript of Pat Kenny's interview with the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners last week

Read my last post. They have published guidelines for arriving at a valuation. I haven't seen them, nor does it affect me as I'm a renter. But I can't understand what you're all in a tizzy about until you actually get your letter and guideline document and do your calculation, and see how you're fixed!?

 

[Sumatra]

Don't forget a person could buy an agricultural business for €2,000,000 but the residential property on it might only be worth €450,000. So tax is on the €450,000.

In January of this year we were told by the Minister for Finance that he was satisfied that Revenue have sufficient staff to undertake the commitment to value properties for the property tax. If this map is a result of this commitment and if you use it to form the basis of your self assessment then hoew can they fault you?

I get the feeling that this all just a stop gap until 2016 and they just want to get us all on board first.

Mandle sorry just saw your reply now. I accept the oddity in both of us Of course I'll be doing what they ask, I just like certainty. 'LPT is a self-assessed tax' self-assess the value of your home in an uncertain market is not easy to do and through the boom and the bust I've not met anyone who got it right but now ordinary Mr & Ms Joe Soaps have to do it.

 

[Guns N Roses]

Does anyone know when they'll be releasing the list of Unfinished Housing Estates that will qualify for a waiver from the LPT?

 

[mandelbrot]

Don't forget a person could buy an agricultural business for €2,000,000 but the residential property on it might only be worth €450,000. So tax is on the €450,000.

In January of this year we were told by the Minister for Finance that he was satisfied that Revenue have sufficient staff to undertake the commitment to value properties for the property tax. If this map is a result of this commitment and if you use it to form the basis of your self assessment then hoew can they fault you?

I get the feeling that this all just a stop gap until 2016 and they just want to get us all on board first.

It's a self assessment tax - it's up to Joe Public to value their property - Revenue will administer, collect, and where necessary enforce the tax.

 

[Dermot]

Mandelbrot. I have no wish to fight with you as I have found you most helpful but I heard a tax official on radio stating that people who have a different valuation than the revenue for the LPT would leave themselves open to an Audit. That is not the type of word that is used by the ordinary person where a difference in property value is an issue. I've bought and sold property over the years and never used the word "Audit" in the negotiations. To the ordinary person the use of the term "Audit" is a threat. That is where I believe the use of word "audit" is inappropriate and disproportionate in the context of a genuinely held difference of opinion on price.