Legal Question - Court summons for having a dirty reg

[onq]

Thanks for the reply DavyJones.

Yeah I said to the guard that I didn't realise it was so dirty and I'd wash the jeep when I got back to the site compound but he ignored that.

I might do as you suggest and go to court myself; hopefully I will get a reasonable judge that I can explain the situation to.

At the moment you are up for a dirty number plate.

If you elect to give evidence, I think you can be cross-examined.

Merely stating the sequence of events will expose you to another charge.

You said you didn't have your licence on you when you were stopped by the Garda.

My strong advice to you is to to court, show respect for the judge, take the hit, walk away.

If the judge asks if you have anything to say in mitigation, you can then tell him you had forgotten to hose down the car after leaving the muddy site.

That way the separate and points-attracting offence of having no licence when stopped may not come to the attention of the Court, with possibly adverse consequences for yourself.

HTH

 

[Morgause]

At the moment you are up for a dirty number plate.

If you elect to give evidence, I think you can be cross-examined.

Merely stating the sequence of events will expose you to another charge.

You said you didn't have your licence on you when you were stopped by the Garda.

My strong advice to you is to to court, show respect for the judge, take the hit, walk away.

If the judge asks if you have anything to say in mitigation, you can then tell him you had forgotten to hose down the car after leaving the muddy site.

That way the separate and points-attracting offence of having no licence when stopped may not come to the attention of the Court, with possibly adverse consequences for yourself.

HTH

Thanks a million, that is really helpful. When you put it like that it would be much better to keep quiet rather than telling the judge the ins and outs of everything.

 

[DavyJones]

You should find out the maximum penalty on StatuteBook.ie by entering in the act and section number from the summons.. probably just a fine but maybe jail time, I'd be amazed if they imposed jail time, that is basically inconcievable.. so a fine, maybe penalty points.

Maybe jail time? Penalty points? It wouldn't surprise me.

 

[oldnick]

Joe Ballantin raises an interesting point about applying strictness to the law but he misses the whole point of this thread. I dont think anyone has disputed that there should be a fine. Its the taking to court that amazes everyone -except Joe.
If,really, gardai take people to court for small infringements then the result is a lowering of respect for the garda siochana -and the law generally. (I repeat -nobody is object to a reasonable fine, though if, really, there was fresh mud on a plate it seems harsh)

I'm an old guy and in the 60s and 70s lived in countries where the police punished people for any infringement of the law. As Joe says "its the only way people will learn".
Maybe so; but they also learned to hate/fear the police and certainly wouldn't go out of their way to help them in more serious matters.

"Zero tolerance" sounds good but can produce adverse results that don't benefit society. "Intelligent approach" would be more beneficial. We have neither in this country.

Sorry Ms Morgause for kidnapping your thread.
I wonder if you could tell us if ,actually, you do get a summons to appear in court-or whether the gard did use a more intelligent approach and just shocked you into leading a life of clean number-plates!

 

[mathepac]

At the moment you are up for a dirty number plate.

If you elect to give evidence, I think you can be cross-examined.

Merely stating the sequence of events will expose you to another charge.
...

More legal advice from the TV drama school of law. I do wish you'd stop posting this kind of waffle.

 

[Morgause]

I wonder if you could tell us if ,actually, you do get a summons to appear in court-or whether the gard did use a more intelligent approach and just shocked you into leading a life of clean number-plates!

I will indeed update this thread if/when I get a summons.

 

[onq]

More legal advice from the TV drama school of law. I do wish you'd stop posting this kind of waffle.

Having served as an expert witness in several cases and been involved in two myself I have a fair grasp of how the District and High Courts work.

If you've got a criticism of something I said, make your point, otherwise keep the ad hominems for someone who appreciates his leg being peed on.

 

[silvermints]

Maybe jail time? Penalty points? It wouldn't surprise me.

Or even hanging if some of the moral police on here had their way. To think with all the crime in this country someone is been taken to court for dirty number plates .... give me a break.

 

[JoeB]

Or even hanging if some of the moral police on here had their way. To think with all the crime in this country someone is been taken to court for dirty number plates .... give me a break.

So what do you suggest?

That nobody is ever prosecuted for this? That the Guard gives out at the roadside and then allows the offender to drive away? A fixed penalty notice might be appropriate but the Guard may not have that option.. I don't know.


This is how to solve serious crime.. by starting with the little things and working your way up.. otherwise you engender an attitude, as many people display here, that some crimes are only 'small' crimes and the Guards should be out getting 'rapists, and drug dealers'.. well, they're out there getting them as well.. maybe the Guard was a dedicated traffic cop who is out looking for motoring offences.. and some other cops are out getting the drug dealers.

 

[DavyJones]

Or even hanging if some of the moral police on here had their way. To think with all the grime in this country someone is been taken to court for dirty number plates .... give me a break.

So what do you suggest?

Heres a suggestion, The Gardai says, "step out and clean your number plate right here infront of me" Simple, no court time, no tax payers money wasted.

If it makes you happy, I could go along with a €50 on the spot fine, but court time, no.

 

[silvermints]

So what do you suggest?

I'd expect the guard to use some common sense and tell the person go and get the jeep washed

 

[JoeB]

Yes, and if your child was hit by a car and it turned out nobody got the reg cause it was covered in mud.. what then?, you'd be dead happy I suppose.


How is it common sense to allow someone to drive off breaking the law? Why don't you lobby the government to remove the law if you think it's such a waste of time?

Getting the offender to wipe the reg may be a non-starter.. it could be humiliating. The Guard could say ' you cannot drive off unless that is cleaned AND here's your fixed penalty / court date'.. and if the person doesn't want to clean it then they must park it up or have it towed...

Do you ever see what happens in the UK?, cars seized and crushed (not for this offence, but no insurance I think)... etc. Now that makes people notice...

 

[silvermints]

Yes, and if your child was hit by a car and it turned out nobody got the reg cause it was covered in mud.. what then?, you'd be dead happy I suppose.


How is it common sense to allow someone to drive off breaking the law? Why don't you lobby the government to remove the law if you think it's such a waste of time?

Getting the offender to wipe the reg may be a non-starter.. it could be humiliating. The Guard could say ' you cannot drive off unless that is cleaned AND here's your fixed penalty / court date'.. and if the person doesn't want to clean it then they must park it up or have it towed...

Do you ever see what happens in the UK?, cars seized and crushed (not for this offence, but no insurance I think)... etc. Now that makes people notice...

Oh my God now that awful person with the mud on the number plate is killing children. A public hanging and crush the jeep is the only answer.

 

[motor-ed]

I think it's reasonable for the Garda to ask for the plate to be cleaned straight away, in fact I've known them to do this. I'm all for enforcing the laws but a little common sense and judging each case on it's merits should prevail.
If the jeep's sitting outside a bank with the engine running and the plate muddied over then...............................

 

[rosemartin]

wait and see if you get a sumons first,how long ago did this happen,this is a summary offence and you could wait up to six months before a summons is issused.the judges do not see this as serious and you should have been given a fine on spot notice instead of a thretto court, my guess is that you will not be in court, and if you are you have a right to represent yourself and outline your side to the judge when the case is call. i feel you have been badly treated here

 

[Complainer]

I'd expect the guard to use some common sense and tell the person go and get the jeep washed

And listen to the builder laughing his head off as he drives away!

I do think a fixed penalty notice makes more sense than clogging up court time with this stuff, but the Garda was absolutely right to take action. I'd bet the driver will be more careful the next time he leaves a muddy site.

In fact, a well managed site will have washers for vehicles exiting to avoid bringing muck and debris out onto the road.

 

[Bronte]

Maybe the Garda should have gone to the roadworks site with all the muck and debris and fined the builders for having it that way. Also could the OP sue the people who caused the mud for the costs of the fine.

 

[Morgause]

I'd expect the guard to use some common sense and tell the person go and get the jeep washed

In an attempt to appease the guard I said that I'd do that immediately but I was ignored. (You could eat your dinner off it now by the way! And a large bottle of water lives in the jeep now to be splashed onto the reg when I'm not near the site carwash.)

wait and see if you get a sumons first,how long ago did this happen,this is a summary offence and you could wait up to six months before a summons is issused.the judges do not see this as serious and you should have been given a fine on spot notice instead of a thretto court, my guess is that you will not be in court, and if you are you have a right to represent yourself and outline your side to the judge when the case is call. i feel you have been badly treated here

It was Thursday last week so I'll be waiting a while I reckon! If I am called to court I'll be dusting off a suit and representing myself. Can't spare money for a solicitor really!

And listen to the builder laughing his head off as he drives away!

I do think a fixed penalty notice makes more sense than clogging up court time with this stuff, but the Garda was absolutely right to take action. I'd bet the driver will be more careful the next time he leaves a muddy site.

In fact, a well managed site will have washers for vehicles exiting to avoid bringing muck and debris out onto the road.

I'm not a builder; I work for a consultancy and I'm just working on this site temporarily. I'm a typical office-type, not at all the breakfast-roll eating builder! Also I'm not what you might call pally with the builder in any way, it's my job to pick holes in his work and call him up on it! However I have a feeling that the guard has been dealing with a lot of stuff from those builders for the past few years and has decided to take it out on someone who he thinks is connected to them.

I would love to see washers at every exit of the site but someone like me on the low end of the importance scale is not going to be able to change that.

Maybe the Garda should have gone to the roadworks site with all the muck and debris and fined the builders for having it that way. Also could the OP sue the people who caused the mud for the costs of the fine.

Ah no I won't be sueing anyone, at the end of the day the mud on the reg was my responsibility.

 

[Bronte]

Morgeuse I was only being tongue in cheek. I cannot believe you are being summonsed for a dirty car reg.

 

[JERRY321]

I've been in this position before myself.
A while ago I was driving and I had to turn left. There was a bus lane and the only possible way to turn left was to drive into the bus lane.
An eagle-eyed ban-garda (the worst kind!) jumped out of the bushes (literally!!!) and started questioning me on what I was doing, where was my licence, insurance, nct, how was my tyre-pressure etc etc etc. Everything was fine except for the licence as I had left it at home cos I was only nipping out for a few messages (I know!).
This paragon of the law kept me at the side of the road while she rang in my reg plate to make sure I was the registered owner (???) and went through all her checks.
Finally she said that I would be getting a summons for crossing a bus-lane line. I said that there was no other possibility as I wanted to turn left but she didn't want to know. I spent the next few weeks quivering at home, afraid to look in the post box & afraid to go out. No summons was ever received. I also spoke to my local community garda who has always had his head screwed on ... he said there was nothing outstanding on me either.
I think possibly the gardai have targets they have to reach by the end of a month/quarter. Coming up to the end of the month, they go all gung-ho in order to bump up their quota. I don't think its the gardai themselves that issue the summons, but rather the courts. And the courts will only issue a summons if they think its worth while!
Hope this makes you feel a little better!