Legal Question - Court summons for having a dirty reg

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Morgause

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Hopefully somebody here who knows about motoring offences will be able to help me.

I got stopped by the gardai at a checkpoint. I didn't have my license on me (I know! very bad) because I was driving my work jeep. I do most of my driving in my own car which is where the license was. I'd come off our very muddy roadworks site in the jeep and the reg was dirty. The guard said I would be getting a summons to court soon because the reg was unreadable.

Is this the sort of thing judges come down hard on? I have no experience of court and have no idea what to expect! Do I need a solicitor or do I represent myself?
 
Great to see public money being spent so wisely, first training that Garda and then to take you to court.

If I were you I would go to court myself (if you have a free day, because you could be in court all day) and plead your case. Jeep was off road/onsite and was due a clean.
 
I don't have any great knowledge of motoring offences, but I wouldn't have thought that an illegible registration plate would have resulted in a court summons. A fine certainly, but it wouldn't have struck me as something that result in a summons. Especially when driving without a licence earns you http://www.penaltypoints.ie/licence_offences.php (penalty points).

I've done a search on-line and I can't find any confirmation in either case, but I wonder if the Garda was exaggerating the consequences a bit to re-enforce the message? Did the garda take your details?
 
Thanks for the reply DavyJones.

Yeah I said to the guard that I didn't realise it was so dirty and I'd wash the jeep when I got back to the site compound but he ignored that.

I might do as you suggest and go to court myself; hopefully I will get a reasonable judge that I can explain the situation to.
 
Hi NovaFlare77, yes the guard did take all my details. I didn't get the impression that he was trying to reinforce the seriousness of having an illegible plate; it rather seemed that he wanted to do me for something.

I was expecting the same as you - some points and a fine (seeing as I both had no license, and a dirty reg) - but not a court appearance.
 
Morgause said:
yes the guard did take all my details. I didn't get the impression that he was trying to reinforce the seriousness of having an illegible plate; it rather seemed that he wanted to do me for something.
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I doubt it, as he didn't 'do' you for not having a licence with you, which is a requirement.
 
What a Police force or the Muppet Show. If they want to instill these kind of procedures then every court will be full of Lorry Drivers been charged with dirty number plates. I thought that the Gardai had to give you ten days to produce your licence at a station of your choice.
 
No, a rule came in where you had to have the licence with you if you were driving. You are supposed to carry it.

As for dirty licence plates, how can someone report your car for whatever reason if they can't read it?
 
Did you get the Garda's number (s/b on sleeve of jacket/shirt) The fact that he said you were being summond for a "dirty number plate" and no reference to "driving licence" makes me wonder what type of attitude our force is taking with us citizens. I wonder if he would have had the same attitude with thugs. Because we only have one side of the story and going with that, if I were you I would write to the Superintendent about this issue. It's about time we stopped this petty condescending attitude that SOME not all of the force take.
 
I can't believe the replies. The OP was on the public breaking the law. So he's in court.. what's the problem?

Ah yeah sure.. he was going to clean it later etc etc.. so what, he should have cleaned it after his off-roading and before he took to the road. The OP cannot complain.. while people may break laws when they are caught they should just accept it.. not moan about it. You don't have a case to plead, you are guilty.. sure you can make excuses but that's all they are, excuses.

What should the Poilce do?.. ignore people breaking the law?

The OP also didn't have his licence.. because it's in the other car.. that's the OPs problem and he could have been done for that too.

Maybe the Guard could see that the dirt on the plate wasn't just from one day... maybe the dirt is a little older. But even if the dirt was brand new it is still an offence and I applaud the Guard for summoning the OP to court.. maybe now the OP will observe the law in the future.

I think the OP should accept he was breaking the law and face the music.
 
JoeBallantin said:
I think the OP should accept he was breaking the law and face the music.
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I think it's fair to say he does accept it and is willing to face the music. She was asking for advice on what to do next and for opinions on likely outcomes:

Is this the sort of thing judges come down hard on? I have no experience of court and have no idea what to expect! Do I need a solicitor or do I represent myself?
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JoeBallantin said:
I can't believe the replies. The OP was on the public breaking the law. So he's in court.. what's the problem?

Ah yeah sure.. he was going to clean it later etc etc.. so what, he should have cleaned it after his off-roading and before he took to the road. The OP cannot complain.. while people may break laws when they are caught they should just accept it.. not moan about it. You don't have a case to plead, you are guilty.. sure you can make excuses but that's all they are, excuses.

What should the Poilce do?.. ignore people breaking the law?

The OP also didn't have his licence.. because it's in the other car.. that's the OPs problem and he could have been done for that too.

Maybe the Guard could see that the dirt on the plate wasn't just from one day... maybe the dirt is a little older. But even if the dirt was brand new it is still an offence and I applaud the Guard for summoning the OP to court.. maybe now the OP will observe the law in the future.

I think the OP should accept he was breaking the law and face the music.
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To be honest I would much prefer my money was spent on speeders/non tax holders/non insurance/ etc than a jeep with a dirty number plate. It's petty and it will cost me money to prosecute. It's a joke.
 
MaryBM said:
Did you get the Garda's number (s/b on sleeve of jacket/shirt)
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To be honest, I was in such a fluster I didn't even think of that. It was the first time ever that I was being treated like a wrongdoer by a guard and I was really panicky.
I think the OP should accept he was breaking the law and face the music.
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JoeBallantin, where did I say that I wasn't guilty or wanted to get away with it? I am simply asking for advice as to how judges perceive this misdemeanour so that I can prepare myself. By the way, I'm a female :) Also just so you know I am normally religious about keeping the plates clean as well as the rest of the jeep; it just so happened that the one time I didn't it was noticed. I splashed some water on it afterwards with a bottle of water and all the fresh wet mud came off leaving it clean. It was not a case of me leaving the mud caked on for days!
 
Smashbox said:
I doubt it, as he didn't 'do' you for not having a licence with you, which is a requirement.
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That's the part that I can't understand. The Garda could have easily given the OP a fine and penalty points for not having a licence as well as booking him for the registration plate, but chose to just target the reg plate issue. Of course, the Garda probably has discretion as what he will and won't make a charge for, but it's still a bit odd. That's why I'm still thinking that the Garda may have wanted to give the OP a warning he wouldn't easily forget.

Morgause, in any case, there's nothing you can do about it right now. Wait to see if the summons turns up and if/when it does, do a search to see how severe the penalties are. And in the meantime, make sure to wash the reg plates when you're leaving the site and have ur licence with you at all times. It wouldn't do to have the same Garda pull you over twice for the same thing! ;)
 
To be honest I would much prefer my money was spent on speeders/non tax holders/non insurance/ etc than a jeep with a dirty number plate.
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But the OP was stopped at a checkpoint, meaning the Gardai would have been checking for everything, not just looking for dirty number plates. If the next car along had no tax/insurance whatever, they would have been done for that just the same.
 
Smashbox said:
But the OP was stopped at a checkpoint, meaning the Gardai would have been checking for everything, not just looking for dirty number plates. If the next car along had no tax/insurance whatever, they would have been done for that just the same.
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And I am happy that my money is spent that way.

A lot of Gardai lack common sense, how about taking this approch....give a warning and tell the person keep it clean..why clog up the courts with this stupid misdemaner.
 
Everyone, at the risk of creating a furore by acting like a self-appointed mod, I think we're starting to go off topic here. (Interesting and all as the discussion is)

In the interests of making the replies relevant to the OP (and to save the real mods the possible task of splitting/closing a thread) can we stick to the original question asked, which I think can be summed up with this line:

Is this the sort of thing judges come down hard on? I have no experience of court and have no idea what to expect! Do I need a solicitor or do I represent myself?
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Mods: If I've overstepped my boundaries here, please accept my apologies and delete this post.
 
NovaFlare77 said:
Everyone, at the risk of creating a furore by acting like a self-appointed mod, I think we're starting to go off topic here. (Interesting and all as the discussion is)

In the interests of making the replies relevant to the OP (and to save the real mods the possible task of splitting/closing a thread) can we stick to the original question asked, which I think can be summed up with this line:



Mods: If I've overstepped my boundaries here, please accept my apologies and delete this post.
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Thanks! I just want to know what to expect really. I promise I will keep my reg clean in future and have my license glued to me in future, honest!
 
Well, I think's there a low chance that something serious will happen. There is some chance that the Guard won't turn up.

(Actually, a good system, considering that this stop was at a checkpoint, would be for all the prosecutions to occur in the same court, on the same day.. so it'd be easy for the Guard to turn up.. also the Court Clerk could list the cases together to minimise the Guards lost time)

If the Guard turns up then you'll have to plead.. most likely guilty... you could plead not guilty but unless you have a loophole or a technicality of some sort I don't how what you'd say. The judge will most likely be well used to everyone saying 'it was the first time ever', or 'I was only going 100 yds' or 'I didn't know' etc.. so the penalty depends on the judge.

You should find out the maximum penalty on StatuteBook.ie by entering in the act and section number from the summons.. probably just a fine but maybe jail time, I'd be amazed if they imposed jail time, that is basically inconcievable.. so a fine, maybe penalty points.

People are criticising the Guard.. maybe he's aware that a covered number plate is a serious offence, the car is untraceable.. what if there's a hit and run, cheating on tolls, speeding cameras etc?,... whereas the licence issue is less serious, and our system is pretty badly implemented, (we should have smaller licences).. so the Guard did display good thinking on the day in my opinion. I presume he did ask for you to produce the licence within 10 days?


I think there should be a zero tolerance policy to 'minor' motoring offences.. no tax, bald tires, dirty plates (and novelty plates with the wrong font or colour), not the licence maybe, but also cracked windscreeens, broken lights and mirrors, illegal turns and use of bus lanes etc etc.. that's the only way people will finally learn.

How are the Guards to know if it a first time offence or a serial offender?.. the only thing is to prosecute everyone and soon only serial offenders will be breaking the law as others will have copped on.

These 'minor' offences should be prosecuted using affadavits from the Guard by civil prosecutors, using photo evidence where possible as it is very compelling and hard to deny, in a special streamlined dedicated motoring court.. (maybe by using a special judge or judges who travel around to various district courts for the one / two days a month when motoring offences are prosecuted)
 
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