Legal apprenticeship: any tips on trying to find a trainee solicitor job

Mag said:
Hi guys,

I had a meeting(a pseudo interview if you will!!) with a solicitor today in my home town. He spent around ten minutes telling me how this profession is f****d. The bottom has fell out of the legal profession. He told me that there is no prospects at all at the moment. Now I know we all know this, but it was just hit home more coming straight from the horses mouth. More interestingly he informed me that Arthur Cox are going to be letting all of their apprentices go after they're qualified. This is the same for a large majority of trainees in all firms.As well he was warning me that the general public hate solicitors. Hate. Basically he was asking me do I have anything else I want to do and to go for that as opposed to becoming a solicitor.

Just thought I'd share the info, because I know that anyone who gets PFO's from everywhere (and I mean everywhere) gets discouraged. Its so sickening that all these firms came to college and maintained that everything was fine and encouraged us all to apply, and then not take on any trainees or take on the bare minimum. It's all a big pile of PR crap, they just don't want to let on that they are suffering, more than any other profession. Getting rejected from absolutely EVERYWHERE does get you down, but we have to remember its not us... it's the economy!! :)
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I'm just finishing my training, about to go out into the big bad world, and have to say, it is a bad time to be looking for an apprenticeship. While the economy was certainly worse in the 1980's, there was fewer qualified solicitors and few qualifying each year.

In the town I'm based in, newly qualifieds are being let go after their first year qualified, and very few trainees are being kept on.

Even if the economy does recover in the next 18-24 months, does Ireland need as many solicitors as were needed in the conveyancing boom?

That being said, a lot the professions are in trouble at the minute, architects are being fired by the truckload, pharmacists are facing deregulation, engineers are being left go as construction dries up, others are losing their jobs as American firms cut back, this downturn is far wider than just the law community.
 
Incamera said:
That being said, a lot the professions are in trouble at the minute, architects are being fired by the truckload, pharmacists are facing deregulation, engineers are being left go as construction dries up, others are losing their jobs as American firms cut back, this downturn is far wider than just the law community.
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It's certainly true that jobs are scarce in many sectors. But the biggest problem with law is the fact that you leave college after X number of years without actually being qualified to do anything. Of course it's tough for engineers, architects, nurses, pharmacists etc. But at least they graduate with the title of engineer, architect, nurse, whatever. I've a law and language degree and a masters.... and basically after 5 years of college, (4 of them at the tax-payers expense) my qualification title is "graduate"!

As for Darwinian theories that the best will survive etc, I believe that is true in relation to the top firms who ostensibly recruit on merit. But the fact remains that in firms around the country, it's more about who you know, than what you know. I think it's time to establish a single course for access to the solicitor profession (although one which can be administered in several Universities), [with entry based on leaving cert points (I know it's a crude enough instrument for assessing intelligence, but as has been said elsewhere, essentially, the law involves retaining vast amounts of knowledge, so anyone able to memorize vast quantities of notes must be suited to law!! And at least you'll know that at the end of the 5year course or whatever, you'll definitely be a qualified solicitor), and perhaps a graduate entry-option (involving assessment)], that provides an education in the theory of law and the practicalities of life as a solicitor. And there should be a limited amount of places on the course, based on sustainable numbers entering the profession annually. Because I don't care what the bleating hearts at the Competition Authority say about barriers to entry etc - the greater good is better served by having realistic expectations and some control over the system. And I'm not just talking about the greater good of lawyers - I'm talking about the greater good of the economy generally: I find it such a waste that there's an excessive amount of my peers, who have good law degrees, either forced to rely on unemployment benefit because they're (a) overqualified for the most menial of jobs, or (b) underqualified for any position that might have some relevance to their degree, or else working in a low-paying job that they were fortunate enough to secure but not earning enough to make a decent contribution to the economy through taxes etc. I find it sickening that almost every year, new law courses are being introduced at Universities, with that nonsense caveat that "so many industries regard a law degree highly". Maybe a lot of them regard a legal qualification highly but I've yet to see companies actively recruiting someone with just a law degree.
 
Lawyerlygrad, excellent piece of writing. I 100% agree something needs to be done with regard to how law degrees are handed out ad nauseam and in effect this degree on its own will NOT get you a job, the profession is becoming somewhat of a joke!
 
hi everyone,
Ive been reading this forum for a long time, its really very good. I have a year to go before qaulification and Im in a small general practice down the country. I know in my heart of hearts I will either be joining the dole queue, or searching for alternative employment this time next year when its my turn to get my parchment, all this after nine years of education..unless things take a drastic turn for the better and we all know the chances of that happening!Its hard not to feel bitter about it, no matter how hard you try and console yourself as the hard fact of the matter is the law society took our money, gave no thought to the unsustainable numbers they were taking in and the countless numbers of students that they were duping into believing that they could actually work as solicitors in this country. I oftentthink my bitterness is measured by the question I still ask myself: 'Would I advise any new leaving cert student to choose law?' Unless you are prepared for years of hard slog with no gaurantee of a job at the end, while similtaneously devoting the best years of your life to this fool hardy pursuit, then the answer would resolutely be no!!..we can only live and hope, to all of you still on the hunt I wish you all the very best of luck..Keep up the informed discussion on these boards too!
lawsue
 
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Mag said:
More interestingly he informed me that Arthur Cox are going to be letting all of their apprentices go after they're qualified. This is the same for a large majority of trainees in all firms.
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This is not accurate information. Of 26 trainees qualifying at AC around now, 20 are being kept on, 6 let go.
 
dave28 said:
This is not accurate information. Of 26 trainees qualifying at AC around now, 20 are being kept on, 6 let go.
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Thats just what he told me, but when they come to college bragging on about their "100% retention" rate! makes you wonder..
 
I have a question, has anyone done or is doing the LLM in Trinity? I'm thinking about doing it but I'd really appreciate peoples feedback from it. Thanks :)
 
Mag said:
I have a question, has anyone done or is doing the LLM in Trinity? I'm thinking about doing it but I'd really appreciate peoples feedback from it. Thanks :)
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hey - was thinking of doing it myself and have done a good bit of research on it - and what stumped me was: I was asked what will I do at the end of it?

Not guaranteed a traineeship and also from looking at a lot of trainees in teh big firms - they're usually taken while in college. My reason for wanting to do the LLM was to get a good traineeship - however it doesn't, from my experience, give one that edge. It will also be a question of what will the market be like upon graduation which, from reading a lot of forecasts for the coming year or so - doesn't look like by the time qualifying from the LLM, that much will have changed - bar spending a lot of money and working very hard.

My outlook above is a bit gloomy however forewarned is forearmed!
 
This thread is so depressing, lots of young talent being wasted. The bottom line is that there are just too many solicitors, too many law graduates. The universities like law courses because they bring prestige and attract smart students but are very cheap to provide. The law society can't restrict entry and they can employ lots of solicitors to provide the courses.

I've been a solicitor for over 15 years, am dedicated, have never been complained to the law soc, or sued or lost anybody's money but I'm not even approaching well off, if I was the main breadwinner in the household we couldn't make ends meet.

The costs of just existing as a solicitor are increasing every year, the insurance doubled this year. The public want cheap, for example a will, a basic legal service. The public think this should cost about €100. But it usually takes two appointments, the first at least an hour, then another hour to draft it, plus all the letters and attendances that have to be prepared to avoid being sued by a disgruntled beneficiary. At least 3 hours work by a highly qualified and experienced individual with very high overheads most of which are there to protect the client.

Bad as things were in the early 90's at least there were fewer qualifying. It took me 8 years to qualify. I would have been better off taking an entry level job in the public service or other large company, I would certainly be earning more and might even have a pension. And the customers couldn't sue me!

Good luck to you all, I don't envy you.
 
Merry Christmas everyone!!!! Hopefully this time next year we'll all have apprenticeships!! That would be the best Christmas present EVER!!!
 
lawsue said:
hi everyone,
Ive been reading this forum for a long time, its really very good. I have a year to go before qaulification and Im in a small general practice down the country. I know in my heart of hearts I will either be joining the dole queue

Ramble:-
This thread is so depressing, lots of young talent being wasted. The bottom line is that there are just too many solicitors, too many law graduates.
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Can any of you guys read? the smart money would appear to be focusing on finding a new career. This tread is full of people making trying to save you guys a lot of pain and upset but no-one seems to be taking their advice on-board.

IF YOU GUYS GET APPRENTICESHIPS NEXT YEAR I HOPE YOU DON'T END UP QUALIFYING TO BECOME UNEMPLOYED LIKE MANY OF MY FRIENDS
 
hey all,

I hope you all had a good xmas. I was just wondering if any one has ever had a second interview with BCM, you know the one with the presentation. Don't know what 2expect and would love some advice about it.

Thanks:)
 
ramble said:
This thread is so depressing, lots of young talent being wasted.
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If it wasn't so close to tragic it would be funny to see your post, which I agree with, being immediately followed by another "anyone get a PFO from Firm X" post. I realise that a good number of people are committed to this particular path by now and can't pursue something else without abandoning a good deal of hard work, but those who can pull out at this point and won't; you're on a fool's errand.

Law doesn't generate work in and of itself, it's a service industry. Without a thriving economy the demand for the service can only go one direction. The difficulties in securing a training contract had materialised before there was any economic downturn so the market, at its peak, was already oversupplied with bright young things competing against each other for limited places. In the current climate the inescapable fact is that many of you just won't get a contract. To continue to pursue it without a plan B is not determination that will be eventually rewarded by a firm, it's lunacy.

An email went around to all fee-earners in a leading firm on Monday last detailing a career break scheme being offered to everyone with a set amount of post-qualification experience, whereby one can avail of a lump sum to disappear for 1 to 2 years. There is understandably a degree of nervousness in the workplace in response to this and all the other indicators and, if the payroll is not trimmed down by this and the natural wastage of staff, the only conclusion is that fee-earners will be let go, something that that particular firm has not done as yet.

There is the argument that trainees cost relatively little to employ, which is true, but they're also of relatively little use in producing billable hours and require a much greater degree of supervision by senior staff. Even if trainee numbers are kept up at the levels that they were during the halcyon days, they just won't be kept on once qualified. If you get a contract now with a big firm and things take a turn for the better before you're qualified, it makes more sense for the firm to re-hire anyone who's been cut in the lean times, or to welcome those on a career break back, or to dip into the deepening pool of unemployed solicitors with good workplace experience than to employ a newly qualified solicitor. The experienced solicitors will accept NQ wages to work with a top firm after a lengthy period of unemployment and will take a lot less time to get up to full fee-earning capacity.

My point is that it's bad, as you all know, and it's not going to get any better for a long time. If I was in your position I would be looking at requalifying in the shortest time possible in a technical discipline (or anything else that you feel you're suited for) and attempting to identify a niche area with some prospects of growth.

I didn't go through the PFO lottery myself but I can only imagine from reading the posts here how soul-destroying it is. That kind of negativity is not good for anyone's morale. But if you focus on the pluses, you're capable people to have got even this far and there are or will be paths of much less resistance to a comfortable life in a rewarding position.

While you may love the law and be loathe to give up on the thoughts of a career at the coal face of the profession, at the moment law most certainly does not love you.
 
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