KBC KBC basing cohorts on Application date rather than Draw-down dates

[gnf_ireland]

@Daisy duke Just playing devil's advocate here - and not trying to sway you in any way regarding your FSO complaint....

I did not draw down until Dec 06 and only returned loan acceptance on the 07th Nov, coincidentally the day the flyer was issued.

You made your decision to apply for the mortgage with KBC without the flyer being in existence. You were issued a letter of offer by KBC without the flyer being in existence. You reviewed it and signed it/accepted it without the flyer being in existence. Can you legitimately claim this flyer had any influence over your decision to apply for and accept a mortgage with KBC at the time? It's very unlikely you even knew about the flyer when you returned the Letter of Offer.
Your claim here is that your contract with KBC did not commence until the date of drawdown - fair enough. But the whole point of the flyer is it influenced clients based on what brokers told them - whether they discussed trackers or not.
I think you can state the flyer is unfair ..... but is that enough?

that is the bit I feel is unfair where others have drawn down on the same T&C’s and have now had a tracker restored

I understand this 100%, but I wonder how many of these have benefited from the fact the flyer caused complications and KBC conceded on them as part of the bigger picture, and the majority would not have been eligible otherwise.

If your letter of offer had been issued a few days later, I can see your case. Is there any way you can prove you had a meeting with the broker on 7th November 2006 before you signed the loan agreement?

 

[Jazzer1]

Have you a copy of your application form? Does it show any mention of a tracker there by your broker?

I have the application form and as i said before on an other thread the section on mortgage type and rate details my Broker has wrote down 2 year fixed @ 4.85% but has not ticked any box but the tracker box is beside where he wrote down this.

 

[gnf_ireland]

I have the application form and as i said before on an other thread the section on mortgage type and rate details my Broker has wrote down 2 year fixed @ 4.85% but has not ticked any box but the tracker box is beside where he wrote down this.

I have to admit, I feel your complaint/case is purely based on the end date and the communication to the brokers.

You need to get access to this, either through the Oireachtas committee, PK or FSO. Its likely you won't get any closure until you do. Suggest you raise with Brendan directly ....

 

[mccoypat94]

@Jazzer1 @mccoypat94 and another one here. I also received a letter today stating I had no entitlement to a tracker, this despite my application requesting one. My letter of offer was issued 10 days before the flyer for a fixed rate, they apparently would not grant me a tracker as nets were too high. At the time there was only 0.3% difference between the tracker rate and fixed rate. A difference of about €25 per month. 10 days later all customers are going on to trackers with no caveats!! Their decision not to award me a tracker has cost me dearly and resulted in me doubling the term of my mortgage. They have no intention of reviewing any case outside the given dates, despite their comments to the finance committee. They told me quite clearly to go take my case to the FSO. They seem pretty confident on their stance

My case is slightly different as I got two letters of offer .both in January 07, after the communication .
My original had a tracker, but having liased with the broker we changed to a fixed having been told by the broker we had the option to roll to a tracker.
Unfortunately I only have dates and times in diary entries, nothing was communicated by email during that period. At the time I worked on the same street as the broker so I used to just call into the office and sort stuff out.
I'm going to the fso but I don't know if I can justify paying someone to represent me with the chance I might lose.. that would be salt in the wounds.

 

[gnf_ireland]

My case is slightly different as I got two letters of offer .both in January 07, after the communication .
My original had a tracker, but having liased with the broker we changed to a fixed having been told by the broker we had the option to roll to a tracker.

@mccoypat94 Yes, I do think your case is different...

I am guessing for you to be excluded, you had to have an original application date prior to the November 06 date. However, since your Letter of Offer was issued after that date, I would feel there is a reasonable case to be answered here. Applying for a mortgage is one thing, and you have indicated your interest - but until you sign the Letter of Offer it is just that. It is no difference to the reverse where Approval in Principle is provided, but means very little until the full application is processed by the underwriters.
Anyone who received a Letter of Offer after the November date (irrespective of the application date), is likely to be in constant contact with the broker during that time. It is likely the broker sat down with them and walked them through the details, and it is difficult to envisage a scenario where the broker would not have said "If you go for a fixed rate you will roll onto a tracker" since the communication just came in the door from the bank.
Your point is further supported in my personal view by the fact that you had originally had a tracker offer (what date - assume this is January 07 since you said 2 letters of offer in that month) and subsequently changed it to a fixed. To do this you had to speak to the broker and it is inconceivable the conversation on roll over onto tracker was not had. I would struggle in this case to see how in the balance of probability, you were not influenced by the broker who was in turn influenced by the flyer.

I would definitely go to the FSO in this case - but you need to be crystal clear on your argument. You feel the application date is not as important as the date of the letter of offer. You were offered a tracker in Jan 07, but the broker advised you based on the flyer that you should fix and would roll over onto the tracker. Confirm you worked on the same street as the broker and you frequented their office on a regular basis over the time. Provide proof of employment if required. I would feel you have a reasonable strong case here...

 

[bluestilton]

The CB Framework for Conducting Tracker Mortgage examination states under Inscope Mortgage Accounts that the banks are to review all accounts where the underlying mortgage agreements provided for contractual rights to or options for a tracker mortgage. It also states under Transparency Considerations:
In the course of the examination and in the context of the transparency of the documentation provided to customers the lender is to consider whether there was potential to confuse or mislead customers, including but not limited to:

• A particular term pertaining to the loan agreement was given different meanings by the lender at particular points in time or whether certain terms had dual meanings, with the potential to confuse customers
• Products or interest rates were given different names with the potential to confuse customers in relation to the nature of the product or rate
• Complicated terminology that had the potential to confuse or mislead a customer was ever used
• Definitions of product/rate types were clearly set out for example in loan offers
• Terminology used by the lender pertaining to the loan agreement was consistent across all documentation provided to the customer for example in both a rate change authority and the loan offer.

This to me means that KBC must review every file in relation to the above, though it appears from media reports from them that they are just looking at applications and offers within specific dates.
We applied in 05 for a tracker on an IIB application form which had three options to select .i.e variable, fixed and tracker. Page 4 of the application stated:
(g) the rate of interest will be that which IIB is charging on that date on which the loan cheque is issued and subsequently the rate may vary within the terms of the mortgage
(h)the rate of interest applicable to the lender an may be varied at any time at the discretion of IIB provided however that the applicant will be notified of the change in interest rates at the earliest opportunity.
To me that this is far from clear, on the one hand they are offering a tracker rate on the application and further on in the documentation they are stating that they can change the rates whenever they wish. This is totally misleading!
Would welcome your views.

 

[gnf_ireland]

This to me means that KBC must review every file in relation to the above, though it appears from media reports from them that they are just looking at applications and offers within specific dates.

From my reading of the KBC material and commentary, they state that they have reviewed all mortgage documentation and are happy that there is nothing in this documentation that indicates or gave the impression that customers who fixed were to roll over onto a tracker at the end of the fixed period. They state that the rollover rate is clearly listed as the "prevailing variable rate" and this is not a tracker rate. This appears to be their position - rightly or wrongly.

The issue of the dates relate to a flyer sent to brokers in November 2006, that they say was withdrawn in February 2008, which states that any customer who signs up for a fixed rate during this time will roll over onto a tracker rate. So any customer who applied via a broker legitimately could claim the broker advised them to fix knowing they would roll over onto a tracker at the end of it. Customers who did not go via brokers (if any) were not deemed impacted.

This is where the dates come into it. KBC have unilaterally offered all customers who applied between those two dates the option of returning to a tracker. Those around those dates appear to be deemed non-impacted based on the commentary above. I would personally argue the letter of offer date is as critical as the application date in this discussion. It is very likely that before the letter of offer is signed, there is considerable engagement with the broker and its likely they would have told them about the flyer as it was just in the door !

To me that this is far from clear, on the one hand they are offering a tracker rate on the application and further on in the documentation they are stating that they can change the rates whenever they wish. This is totally misleading!
Would welcome your views.

Without seeing the full document its hard to comment really. Extracts of documents can often be taken out of context.
However, I would say that may be misleading and that is not ideal, it does not mean that the customer is due a tracker. To convince the FSO that they have a case, they need to be able to show that they genuinely thought they were entitled to a tracker and were not given one.
Can you do this in your case?

 

[Jazzer1]

We applied in 05 for a tracker on an IIB application form which had three options to select .i.e variable, fixed and tracker. Page 4 of the application

My application form is the same and my Broker wrote in fixed for 2 years beside the tracker box. Which at the time we thought we were rolling on to in 2010. Until KBC produce the correspondent they send out to Brokers on 11th Feb every account has a case up to the point where they stopped offering trackers altogether. Not alone the prevailing rate but I also had "iibs Home loans renewal rate" on my contract that's two different rates on one loan offer letter.

 

[Johnc6]

From my reading of the KBC material and commentary, they state that they have reviewed all mortgage documentation and are happy that there is nothing in this documentation that indicates or gave the impression that customers who fixed were to roll over onto a tracker at the end of the fixed period. They state that the rollover rate is clearly listed as the "prevailing variable rate" and this is not a tracker rate. This appears to be their position - rightly or wrongly.

Hi gnf_ireland, interested in your opinion here, as they have agreed to compensate new business customers because of the flyer, how do you think they can explain away the IIB Mortgage handbook at that time, which states that at the end of a Fixed rate term, customers can choose another Fixed, Variable or Tracker rate, The choice is yours. The Tracker review team have also stated that SVR was not documented in their literature until much later so I cannot see how they can square that circle.

 

[mccoypat94]

@mccoypat94 Yes, I do think your case is different...

I am guessing for you to be excluded, you had to have an original application date prior to the November 06 date. However, since your Letter of Offer was issued after that date, I would feel there is a reasonable case to be answered here. Applying for a mortgage is one thing, and you have indicated your interest - but until you sign the Letter of Offer it is just that. It is no difference to the reverse where Approval in Principle is provided, but means very little until the full application is processed by the underwriters.
Anyone who received a Letter of Offer after the November date (irrespective of the application date), is likely to be in constant contact with the broker during that time. It is likely the broker sat down with them and walked them through the details, and it is difficult to envisage a scenario where the broker would not have said "If you go for a fixed rate you will roll onto a tracker" since the communication just came in the door from the bank.
Your point is further supported in my personal view by the fact that you had originally had a tracker offer (what date - assume this is January 07 since you said 2 letters of offer in that month) and subsequently changed it to a fixed. To do this you had to speak to the broker and it is inconceivable the conversation on roll over onto tracker was not had. I would struggle in this case to see how in the balance of probability, you were not influenced by the broker who was in turn influenced by the flyer.

I would definitely go to the FSO in this case - but you need to be crystal clear on your argument. You feel the application date is not as important as the date of the letter of offer. You were offered a tracker in Jan 07, but the broker advised you based on the flyer that you should fix and would roll over onto the tracker. Confirm you worked on the same street as the broker and you frequented their office on a regular basis over the time. Provide proof of employment if required. I would feel you have a reasonable strong case here...

Thanks @gnf_ireland . I think anybody should agree that I have a case based on above.
I was interested to hear P Kissane say on Newstalk last week that he has a sucess rate of 70 odd percent with the FSO compared to something like 14% for people going it along.
That would suggest that the represenation is crucial and should probably approach his office to see if he will take on the case and take my chances that I may not win. Its a case of die dog or s>> the licence!

 

[bluestilton]

Thank you. We applied in September 05. I called to the brokers office and remember requesting tracker and signing the application form. Drew down mid 06. We were subsequently put on a lenders prevailing rate in the letter of offer. This never sat right with me and I have queried it on and off with KBC over the years. When we recently received our file it included the application form which showed the tracker box ticked and subsequently scribbled out, the variable box was subsequently ticked and 'discounted' handwritten beside that. My husbands name was entered for his signature but it is not his writing. We have brought the matter to KBCs attention under tracker mortgage review who are adamant that this happened at the brokers and we are not entitled to a tracker. The broker is no longer in business and we have been through hell and back due to the high repayments.
I still believe that they have a case to answer here particularly in light of the requirements of the Consumer Protection Code and the CB Tracker Mortgage Examination framework. And I suspect that there are could be more than myself in this situation.

 

[gnf_ireland]

My application form is the same and my Broker wrote in fixed for 2 years beside the tracker box. Which at the time we thought we were rolling on to in 2010.

Ok, so this is part of your claim - you say the fixed for two years was beside the tracker box and this led you to believe this would mean you roll over onto a tracker. Did your broker say anything to you on this as to why it was there? Who wrote it there? Was there a separate fixed rate box it could have been written into etc? I assume you signed the application form in question? Having not seen the format of the form, its hard to 'judge' how significant this would be if that makes sense - but it could be a reasonable avenue to pursue

Until KBC produce the correspondent they send out to Brokers on 11th Feb every account has a case up to the point where they stopped offering trackers altogether.

Agree - and do not understand why the detail has not been made available.

Not alone the prevailing rate but I also had "iibs Home loans renewal rate" on my contract that's two different rates on one loan offer letter.

Sorry to be picky here but are you talking about letter or Letter of Offer which you sign with your solicitor (ie the mortgage contract)
Devil's advocate says that either way, neither say tracker, so although confusing does this mean you were entitled to a tracker? Do you know what text is in place where a tracker was offered ? Maybe @mccoypat94 may be able to help as he had two letters of offer from what I gather - one with the tracker and one on the fixed rate. A comparison between the two would be telling !

 

[gnf_ireland]

how do you think they can explain away the IIB Mortgage handbook at that time, which states that at the end of a Fixed rate term, customers can choose another Fixed, Variable or Tracker rate, The choice is yours. T

I know that you asked for my opinion @Johnc6, but I genuinely feel I have become very negative on this thread and sound like the master of doom. I really don't want to come across as this and I am genuinely not pro KBC (or any bank), but I do think some here have a major struggle ahead to convince the FSO of the merits of their cases. Not that this should stop anyone trying, but they should give serious thought to how they construct their claim/case to the FSO. KBC have shown they are not really entertaining many exceptions despite what they said to the Finance Committee

It depends when you came off the fixed term - were trackers available in the marketplace at the time? Ie was it before the end of 2008 when they disappeared completely from sale. If there were not available to any customer, then the product was not there to be selected. Is the wording great - definitely not, and I am sure with hindsight all sides would ask for it to be changed to be clearer. One could argue that that line means that when your fixed term is up, you can select any available product we have...

I have to admit, I do not understand why banks withdrew the tracker rates completely in 2008 given the wording of some of their contracts and literature. They should have simply created a ECB+5% tracker and people could have opted into that or not when the time came. It was not very 'sensible' of them to remove them completely when their literature was riddled with reference to them.

I should note that my BOI mortgage agreement in 2011 defined a tracker, as did my KBC one from 2015 - However, neither offered me one or are every likely to do so.

 

[gnf_ireland]

I was interested to hear P Kissane say on Newstalk last week that he has a sucess rate of 70 odd percent with the FSO compared to something like 14% for people going it along.
That would suggest that the represenation is crucial and should probably approach his office to see if he will take on the case and take my chances that I may not win.

I genuinely believe you had a decent case. However, from what PK said previously, his success rate with the FSO is much better than those who went direct. If you look at some other threads here, people have had a number of failed FSO cases in this regard. Without doubt, PK has considerable experience in this area and is probably the single most knowledge person on the topic in the country at this stage.
The added advantage of using PK in your case is he has a background in selling KBC mortgages himself and therefore may have some inside scoop that would help you.

I also believe PK to be honourable (nothing I have heard about him suggests otherwise although I do not know him personally). I think if your case is weak he would tell you so and maybe not accept full payment to process it. It may be a good way to filter the strong cases from the weaker ones at this stage.

Finally, I think having PK on your side with the FSO shows intent to the bank, and that you are willing to spend your own money to ensure that you get a favourable outcome. You are now spending money on it, and this shows you believe you are correct and not just chancing your arm on a wild goose chase in the hope of being successful and hitting the jackpot.

But the downside is - if you lose, you have lost this money also !

 

[Johnc6]

Thanks gnf_ireland for your reply, I came off fixed late 2007 and IIB handbook will be one of my points to FSO, trying to come up with arguments that bank might counter with so appreciate your thoughts.

 

[gnf_ireland]

I called to the brokers office and remember requesting tracker and signing the application form. Drew down mid 06. We were subsequently put on a lenders prevailing rate in the letter of offer.

Ok so if I understand this, you applied for a tracker mortgage but when you got your letter of offer it was a variable rate?
The application form is not a legal document to be fair - the letter of offer/mortgage contract is? What did that say and what did you/your husband sign with your solicitor?
@Daisy duke appears to be in a similar scenario here in that they applied for a tracker and was refused and told they needed to go on fixed for whatever reason. But it was done before the letter of offer was published...

When we recently received our file it included the application form which showed the tracker box ticked and subsequently scribbled out, the variable box was subsequently ticked and 'discounted' handwritten beside that.

I understand at the time that brokers occasionally had discussions with various underwriters to get a view on the chances of the mortgage application success. There is a high possibility this was done by the broker, especially in light of the detail below regarding the signature. I cannot see KBC changing the application form - they would just change the Letter of Offer and say the tracker application was being declined.
Again, it may be worth having a private chat with Daisy to see how KBC handled her tracker decline in terms of communication at the time..

My husbands name was entered for his signature but it is not his writing.

So who signed the application form ? If neither of your signed it, chances are it was the broker...
But surely the legal contract document - Letter of Offer - was signed by you and your husband and this would take precedence over the application form?

We have brought the matter to KBCs attention under tracker mortgage review who are adamant that this happened at the brokers and we are not entitled to a tracker. The broker is no longer in business and we have been through hell and back due to the high repayments.

The problem here is you have a missing link in the chain and that link is no longer around to get any answers from. The purest in me says that the mortgage contract is really all that matters, but I can see how expectations were set based on discussions with the broker. Sadly the broker is not there to defend themselves. It would be good if you could find examples of where similar edits where done on the mortgage application form where the broker is still active and see what they now say in their defence. I think a number of people here may need to form private conversations around their particulars and see how they can move them forward.
I have no doubt that everyone here has been through hell and back regarding the high mortgage payments, but you really do need to see if it is the broker at fault for misleading you or just KBC blaming an easy target now they are out of business.

I still believe that they have a case to answer here particularly in light of the requirements of the Consumer Protection Code and the CB Tracker Mortgage Examination framework. And I suspect that there are could be more than myself in this situation.

I will let others discuss these frameworks, but to be fair the first thing you need to genuinely understand (somehow) is what did the broker do and what did the bank do.... so finding others with similar stories is imperative - and suggest you take that discussion private ! Public forums can be monitored easily !

 

[gnf_ireland]

I came off fixed late 2007 and IIB handbook will be one of my points to FSO, trying to come up with arguments that bank might counter with so appreciate your thoughts.

Trackers were still on offer in late 2007 - what did they offer you when you came off fixed? Did you ring them asking for a tracker? Did you write to them? Did they send you out a form to fill in with the various options listed?

If I was in your shoes, and I asked for a tracker and was refused, I would certainly bring a case to the FSO. However, if I done nothing and just let it roll over and asked for a tracker in January 2009, this is a different matter.

Have you raised an internal complaint to KBC on this? When was this done and what was the response? Was anything formally done in 2007 etc? Any emails/letters/rants on the phone etc?

 

[Johnc6]

Complaint ongoing , tracker refused at that time was put onto SVR automatically with option to fix which I did for a year as best option available. Preparing case for FSO in the meantime

 

[gnf_ireland]

Complaint ongoing , tracker refused at that time was put onto SVR automatically with option to fix which I did for a year as best option available. Preparing case for FSO in the meantime

What if anything have you in writing? have you asked for your case files and also transcripts of any calls made around the time the fixing came to an end ?

 

[Johnc6]

I requested docs however relevant letters from 2007 missing, telephone transcript supplied contained 3 words, luckily I do have originals docs and notes taken from calls